UT 130 to 140
131:13 MINUTES
Hearing Officer: Now JORGE PANKIN. There was an incident in which you may have grabbed HOWARD’s hand in the classroom. JORGE did not see the incident because his sight was blocked by MS. UNTAMED. On the way to Ms. UNTAMED’s class, MS. XAVIER sent them to her office. JORGE saw you approach HOWARD. It appeared to JORGE that you had pulled a paper away from HOWARD. JORGE heard HOWARD say “You can’t do that” and that you had a paper in your hand that you retrieved from HOWARD. OK?
Me: Uh huh, but I didn’t pull his hand.
HO: After he wrote the statement, Ms. XAVIER, AP brought him, ALAN, and JAREL to Ms. UNTAMED’s class. She’s coming into the classroom, she leaves the classroom. After Ms. XAVIER left the classroom, you told them that she was going to call their houses, because they were late and same day you visited JORGE’s home.
Me: On the same day?
HO: I’m saying on the same day. 11/7 was the same day. You must have visited three kids homes that day? Ms. UNTAMED told JORGE’s parents that he could not have seen the incident between HOWARD and him because…Yes?
Me: Well I didn’t know…
HO: Because she was blocking his sight.
Me: Well I didn’t know anything about that on that day. I just knew that the kids were saying that they were going to get me fired, and I didn’t know what the exact inicident was about. They didn’t come and tell me what the incident was about.
HO: No, but you didn’t know there was an investigation, but you automatically, you knew there was a possibility that something was going to come down the pike, right?
Me: As soon as they said that, yeah.
HO: Did you tell JORGE’s parents that he could not have seen the incident regarding HOWARD?
133:48
Me: We did discuss what they said once I was at their house. That there might have been some kind of incident with the pulling of a hand.
HO: With HOWARD. And you discussed that with JORGE’s parents?
Me: Well, we were discussing whatever problems JORGE had. And he said that I might have pulled his hand, and I said how did you see that I might have pulled his hand you weren’t in the field of view. I was in between you and him.
02:14:29
HO How was that a problem that JORGE had. That seems like it was a problem that HOWARD had.
Me: Yeah
ADVOCATE: Why is it an issue then?
HO: Why is she talking about a witness statement that JORGE saw or wrote about an incident that happened with HOWARD.
Me: But I didn’t have access to any witness statements.
HO: I’m not saying that you had any access to witness statements. Why are you talking to JORGE’s parents about HOWARD.
Me: Well, for one thing, he started crying, and he was involved with all of this screaming and yelling so I just called his parents and went over there.
HO There’s screaming and yelling. There’s other issues with JORGE.
Me: And he’s got issues, because he was crying.
HO: Why would you discuss the incident with HOWARD with JORGE’s parents.
Me: …because he discussed it.
ADVOCATE: So that’s how it came up? JORGE brought it up at this discussion with the parents?
Me: Yeah. Because I don’t know what’s going on. The only thing I know is that they’re saying “Change has come, we’re going to get you fired”, and they had already been telling me that they were going to get me fired, that they were going to get me brought up on charges, so by that time I just wanted to make sure that the parents knew that this was going on. That’s all. That ..
ADVOCATE: That he was part of a group.
Me: Yeah. There’s a group thing going on. Because I hadn’t seen any witness statements, there’d been no letters yet. It was just a bunch of kids…
120:16
HO: So you told JORGE’s parents that this was made up with these kids that the
Me: I did tell them that I had been threatened.
HO No, no. That the HOWARD situation. JORGE said that you said how could JORGE see it if you were blocked.
Me: Yeah, but he brought it up.
HO: Ok so he brought it up and…
Me: He brought it up. I said, do you want to discuss why you were crying, cause he was crying, and this could also mushroom out of sight—“Oh why did you make poor JORGE cry”--So he was one of the kids whose parents I called up and said do you want to discuss why you were crying and so then he told how Ms. XAVIER had taken him in and questioned him about me pulling HOWARD’s hand, because HOWARD had said basically made the allegation and JORGE was one of the witnesses that HOWARD said would back him up, and so then I said to JORGE, well how could you have seen that if my back was to you, and I was in between you and HOWARD when I took his paper.
120:18 MINUTES
HO: … and what did he say?
Me: He just said, I don’t know, that’s what I thought happened, and I just let the parents know that this threat had already been made by certain students and they should talk to him and the parents said, you know we believe our child he’s a good boy, and I said that’s fine I just wanted you to know and I wanted to iron out whatever problems he had and just be aware of what is happening. But again, I didn’t know that there was an investigation, I just knew there was a threat at this point.
HO: JORGE did say that you asked ALAN and JAREL, what did they write about you.
Me: No, I just said, “Is there any problem that you have in school?”
HO: No in the classroom when you were in the back.
Me: Oh. Yeah “Is there a problem?”
So you want me to send the things that the kids wrote?
140:10
Saturday, June 6, 2009
OSI HEARING minute 116 to minute 130
UT 116 to 130
116:42 MINUTES
HEARING OFFICER: DAMARAS DEMAR, one of the female students said, “MADELENE made a comment to another student that another student touched her. Ms. UNTAMED made a verbal response to MADELENE, but DAMARAS did not hear the response. You asked DASIE and CARRIE to go into another classroom to write a statement saying that the three students did not hear what you said to MADELENE. That’s what DAMARAS said. Ms. UNTAMED did not visit the home of DAMARAS. These statements were written in Ms. KRAMER'S classroom. At the end of the written statement, she gave it to you in the original science classroom. She saying that you told them, “ Go in there and write that you didn’t hear what was said, what you said”
Me: I asked them to write it down in the classroom and basically the four boys descended on them, physically. They got out of their seats and ran up to them, saying “don’t write that”. They were like threatening them.
HO: DASIE MARESH wrote: While in the classroom, MADELENE stated that another student touched her. Ms. UNTAMED appeared to be angry at MADELENE’s statement. We’ve been through that a lot haven’t we. When questioned about what the comment meant to her, she stated that MADELENE is very popular and she’s not sure if you meant it in a bad way. OK? She felt that what you stated wasn’t inappropriate. That you wanted DASIE to write on paper that DASIE did not hear what you said to MADELENE. DASIE, DAMARAS, and CARRIE went into another classroom, Ms. KRAMER'S to write the statement. She wrote that even though I wasn’t involved in the situation, nor did not hear you say anything rude, she felt that if she didn’t write that she didn’t hear what you had stated to MADELENE that you would be angry and give her a lower grade and use this against her in the future. You understand what’s going on here?
118:18 MINUTES
Me: yeah, it’s all right there.
HO: Do you understand the power that you have?
Me: No. I understand the power THEY have, because that didn’t happen. That didn’t happen.
HO I’m not saying that it happened. What I’m saying is that’s why you can’t get personally involved in stuff like this because in her mind, because the allegation is about you, and you’re asking her to write it if she refuses to write what you want her to write she feels…
Me: … that she’s in trouble with me. And if she does write it she’s in trouble with her peers.
119:58
HO She’s not talking about whether or not she’s in trouble with her peers, she’s talking about what’s going to affect her grade.
Me: And she’s not talking to you about what’s going to happen with her peers if she tells the truth about what I said or what I didn’t say.
HO She told me. She told me initially what it was. She said…
Me: But that’s not what it was. What happened was that some kids told me that kids in 7B (this was on Monday) were saying that I had called MADELENE a slut and that they were very angry with me. And I said, have you ever heard me call anybody anything even approaching that? Have I ever said anything like that to you guys? No , but since you said it to MADELENE we’re really angry with you. I said, please understand that I never said anything like that.
HO Well let me move on.
Me: No, because what you said was wrong. What you read was wrong. Then on Friday…
HO: What I read?
Me: What you said.
HO: No I’m not making a statement. What I’m telling you is what the students said.
Me: No, that’s incorrect, so I have to tell you what the students said that was incorrect. Then on Friday…
HO Which Friday?
121:44
Me: The same week that on Monday, that I knew that kids were going around saying that I had called MADELENE a slut, and this was on Monday, so Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, on that Friday when MADELENE came in, I said, “Listen MADELENE, the kids are telling me that I said something about you. Are we ok?” And she said, “yes”. And then she walked away from me and then she turned around and she started screaming in front of the whole group , “you called me a slut, you called me a slut,” and I was just shocked.
HO: MADELENE said that to you?
Me: Yes, she said, “you called me a slut”.
HO: To you.
Me: Yes. In front of the whole class. And then the whole class started yelling. “You called her a slut. You called her a slut."
HO Let me say this, let me say this…
Me: What I said was to the girls, have you ever heard me call MADELENE "THAT"? And they said “no”.
122:38 MINUTES
HO: I think it’s safe to say that you did not call MADELENE a slut. No one is saying that you called her a slut.
Me: Not now. But that day they were accusing me of calling her a slut.
HO No, no, no,
Me: But that day they were accusing me of calling her a slut. The whole class. They were all screaming at me.
HO: I’m telling you, they did not say that you called MADELENE a slut, MADELENE is not even saying that you called her a slut. They’re saying that whatever you said could be perceived as if, they felt, it’s like another way of calling somebody a slut, OK? But not that you called her a slut. I’m in a agreement with you. You didn’t call her a slut, but you could have, perhaps, under the circumstances, dealing with seventh graders, perhaps, looking back in retrospect, I don’t want to be a Monday morning quarterback, but I think we could all agree here at this table that perhaps if you could do it again you might have used different vernacular you understand?
123:58
Me: No, because I was saying “again?” Is this happening again? I don’t know how…If you bring people up on charges for saying: “this is happening again?” “please write it down this time and sign it” or “go to a counselor”. “This is happening again?” That’s all I said. So there is no…I’m not trying to get the girls to say…oh you know…
HO When you’re saying this is happening again. Has she complained about being touched by any of those boys before?
Me: Yeah.
HO: I thought it was only verbal.
Me: Well, by being BOTHERING by them.
HO: No,no, no. Touched
Me: I’m not a lawyer. I’m not a lawyer. To me it’s AGAIN. BOTHERING IS BOTHERING whether it is pen poking or calling her a cow. BOTHERING IS BOTHERING. PLEASE!!!!
HO: Initially we were only talking about verbal inappropriate statements. Now she says that HOWARD is touching me, and you're saying…
Me: poking her with a pen.
HO: Right, poking her with a pen, whatever, and you’re saying “again”. No. There’s no previous allegation.
Me: Yes there is. They’re calling her…
ADVOCATE: So we’re all agreed that no one called her a slut. So we’re all agreed that the slut business is out. We’re past that.
HO: Agreed, I’m not putting that in.
Me: But putting it that I somehow made them think with my tone of voice that she was a slut or that I was calling her a slut...
ADV: That’s the way a kid thinks when he’s predisposed to.
Me: That's their problem, that's not something that I can control.
HO: I’ll move on.
Me: No. But, the girls… I did not tell them to, “Go write down that I didn’t call her a slut”. I said, have you ever heard me call her something like that and they said, “No”, and I said to please write that down. And I do that a lot with kids. I say. Please write this down. Please write this down. I mean, it’s not an investigation. It’s simply, I want facts, I want this in writing so that later on nobody can say anything and so it’s not interfering with an investigation when the investigation isn’t going on yet. I just wanted to make sure and then when the kids were saying, “Oh don’t do that”, I said, “would you be more comfortable writing outside the classroom”. They had to go outside the classroom so that the class wouldn’t tell them what to write. I wasn’t telling them what to write, I was just saying please write down that I never called her that.
HO OK. CARRIE: While in the classroom, CARRIE sat next to MADELENE. She said HOWARD poked MADELENE. MADELENE told Ms. UNTAMED that HOWARD poked her, and you told MADELENE, “you’re probably used to it”. CARRIE felt. I asked how did you feel about what she said? How did you interpret it? CARRIE felt that it was an inappropriate statement for you to make, to say to MADELENE, in class, and that you denied saying that MADELENE was probably used to it, and stated that HOWARD made that statement, not her. Now here we are, we’re just saying that here we have a student that sat right next to MADELENE who hears you say it and she can’t determine whether HOWARD said it or you said it? I’m just saying…
Me: No she can’t, and if she could, she’s under a lot of pressure from her peers to give that statement.
HO: Well you told them to go out and write the statements.
Me: the statements they wrote for me didn’t say that. They just said that Ms. UNTAMED never said anything rude, she didn’t call MADELENE a slut.
HO: Ok For the record, can you make a notation I mean I see you writing that Ms. UNTAMED’s not providing any of the statements that she has of the students.
Me: How can I provide something when I don’t know exactly what I’m being charged with? I could bring something like this (patomiming an armload of stuff) here. I didn’t know the allegations before I entered this room. I could imagine them, but I’m not going to bring a whole briefcase full of stuff until I know the specific allegations that I’m being asked about.
HO: I asked you am I going to see those and you said…
Me: You want me to send them to you?
HO no no no I just wanted to see what these kids wrote.
Me: I can send you copies, but not the originals.
HO: I don’t need the originals. I was curious as to what they wrote. I’m not unreasonable, I just want to see what they wrote. This case is a pain in the neck.
ADVOCATE: How many more pages to you have there?
120 +9:38
HO: A couple of more pages.
Me: Since they’re already saying that I forced them to say these statements, I don’t know what good they are, but I can send them to you. I can send you copies if you want. I don’t know what good that would do me. Do you want them?
ADVOCATE: Do you want her to send you the copies?
HO: I’ll add them to the case, it’s no problem.
Me: And I’ll send you copies of the things the boys said that MADELENE said and what MADELENE said and that the boys said.
HO: … told the class that she was accused you of saying something that she did not say. Oh that you told the class that you were accused you of doing something that you did not do.
130:30 MINUTES
Ok CARRIE CAFRIN did not hear what you said to MADELENE. The class was noisy. They asked two students to write if you said anything to MADELENE. CARRIE stated that she wrote that she didn’t hear what was said, and if you stated anything, it probably wouldn’t have been bad.
Me: This is DAMARAS or CARRIE?
HO: CARRIE CAFRIN.
131:15 MINUTES
116:42 MINUTES
HEARING OFFICER: DAMARAS DEMAR, one of the female students said, “MADELENE made a comment to another student that another student touched her. Ms. UNTAMED made a verbal response to MADELENE, but DAMARAS did not hear the response. You asked DASIE and CARRIE to go into another classroom to write a statement saying that the three students did not hear what you said to MADELENE. That’s what DAMARAS said. Ms. UNTAMED did not visit the home of DAMARAS. These statements were written in Ms. KRAMER'S classroom. At the end of the written statement, she gave it to you in the original science classroom. She saying that you told them, “ Go in there and write that you didn’t hear what was said, what you said”
Me: I asked them to write it down in the classroom and basically the four boys descended on them, physically. They got out of their seats and ran up to them, saying “don’t write that”. They were like threatening them.
HO: DASIE MARESH wrote: While in the classroom, MADELENE stated that another student touched her. Ms. UNTAMED appeared to be angry at MADELENE’s statement. We’ve been through that a lot haven’t we. When questioned about what the comment meant to her, she stated that MADELENE is very popular and she’s not sure if you meant it in a bad way. OK? She felt that what you stated wasn’t inappropriate. That you wanted DASIE to write on paper that DASIE did not hear what you said to MADELENE. DASIE, DAMARAS, and CARRIE went into another classroom, Ms. KRAMER'S to write the statement. She wrote that even though I wasn’t involved in the situation, nor did not hear you say anything rude, she felt that if she didn’t write that she didn’t hear what you had stated to MADELENE that you would be angry and give her a lower grade and use this against her in the future. You understand what’s going on here?
118:18 MINUTES
Me: yeah, it’s all right there.
HO: Do you understand the power that you have?
Me: No. I understand the power THEY have, because that didn’t happen. That didn’t happen.
HO I’m not saying that it happened. What I’m saying is that’s why you can’t get personally involved in stuff like this because in her mind, because the allegation is about you, and you’re asking her to write it if she refuses to write what you want her to write she feels…
Me: … that she’s in trouble with me. And if she does write it she’s in trouble with her peers.
119:58
HO She’s not talking about whether or not she’s in trouble with her peers, she’s talking about what’s going to affect her grade.
Me: And she’s not talking to you about what’s going to happen with her peers if she tells the truth about what I said or what I didn’t say.
HO She told me. She told me initially what it was. She said…
Me: But that’s not what it was. What happened was that some kids told me that kids in 7B (this was on Monday) were saying that I had called MADELENE a slut and that they were very angry with me. And I said, have you ever heard me call anybody anything even approaching that? Have I ever said anything like that to you guys? No , but since you said it to MADELENE we’re really angry with you. I said, please understand that I never said anything like that.
HO Well let me move on.
Me: No, because what you said was wrong. What you read was wrong. Then on Friday…
HO: What I read?
Me: What you said.
HO: No I’m not making a statement. What I’m telling you is what the students said.
Me: No, that’s incorrect, so I have to tell you what the students said that was incorrect. Then on Friday…
HO Which Friday?
121:44
Me: The same week that on Monday, that I knew that kids were going around saying that I had called MADELENE a slut, and this was on Monday, so Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, on that Friday when MADELENE came in, I said, “Listen MADELENE, the kids are telling me that I said something about you. Are we ok?” And she said, “yes”. And then she walked away from me and then she turned around and she started screaming in front of the whole group , “you called me a slut, you called me a slut,” and I was just shocked.
HO: MADELENE said that to you?
Me: Yes, she said, “you called me a slut”.
HO: To you.
Me: Yes. In front of the whole class. And then the whole class started yelling. “You called her a slut. You called her a slut."
HO Let me say this, let me say this…
Me: What I said was to the girls, have you ever heard me call MADELENE "THAT"? And they said “no”.
122:38 MINUTES
HO: I think it’s safe to say that you did not call MADELENE a slut. No one is saying that you called her a slut.
Me: Not now. But that day they were accusing me of calling her a slut.
HO No, no, no,
Me: But that day they were accusing me of calling her a slut. The whole class. They were all screaming at me.
HO: I’m telling you, they did not say that you called MADELENE a slut, MADELENE is not even saying that you called her a slut. They’re saying that whatever you said could be perceived as if, they felt, it’s like another way of calling somebody a slut, OK? But not that you called her a slut. I’m in a agreement with you. You didn’t call her a slut, but you could have, perhaps, under the circumstances, dealing with seventh graders, perhaps, looking back in retrospect, I don’t want to be a Monday morning quarterback, but I think we could all agree here at this table that perhaps if you could do it again you might have used different vernacular you understand?
123:58
Me: No, because I was saying “again?” Is this happening again? I don’t know how…If you bring people up on charges for saying: “this is happening again?” “please write it down this time and sign it” or “go to a counselor”. “This is happening again?” That’s all I said. So there is no…I’m not trying to get the girls to say…oh you know…
HO When you’re saying this is happening again. Has she complained about being touched by any of those boys before?
Me: Yeah.
HO: I thought it was only verbal.
Me: Well, by being BOTHERING by them.
HO: No,no, no. Touched
Me: I’m not a lawyer. I’m not a lawyer. To me it’s AGAIN. BOTHERING IS BOTHERING whether it is pen poking or calling her a cow. BOTHERING IS BOTHERING. PLEASE!!!!
HO: Initially we were only talking about verbal inappropriate statements. Now she says that HOWARD is touching me, and you're saying…
Me: poking her with a pen.
HO: Right, poking her with a pen, whatever, and you’re saying “again”. No. There’s no previous allegation.
Me: Yes there is. They’re calling her…
ADVOCATE: So we’re all agreed that no one called her a slut. So we’re all agreed that the slut business is out. We’re past that.
HO: Agreed, I’m not putting that in.
Me: But putting it that I somehow made them think with my tone of voice that she was a slut or that I was calling her a slut...
ADV: That’s the way a kid thinks when he’s predisposed to.
Me: That's their problem, that's not something that I can control.
HO: I’ll move on.
Me: No. But, the girls… I did not tell them to, “Go write down that I didn’t call her a slut”. I said, have you ever heard me call her something like that and they said, “No”, and I said to please write that down. And I do that a lot with kids. I say. Please write this down. Please write this down. I mean, it’s not an investigation. It’s simply, I want facts, I want this in writing so that later on nobody can say anything and so it’s not interfering with an investigation when the investigation isn’t going on yet. I just wanted to make sure and then when the kids were saying, “Oh don’t do that”, I said, “would you be more comfortable writing outside the classroom”. They had to go outside the classroom so that the class wouldn’t tell them what to write. I wasn’t telling them what to write, I was just saying please write down that I never called her that.
HO OK. CARRIE: While in the classroom, CARRIE sat next to MADELENE. She said HOWARD poked MADELENE. MADELENE told Ms. UNTAMED that HOWARD poked her, and you told MADELENE, “you’re probably used to it”. CARRIE felt. I asked how did you feel about what she said? How did you interpret it? CARRIE felt that it was an inappropriate statement for you to make, to say to MADELENE, in class, and that you denied saying that MADELENE was probably used to it, and stated that HOWARD made that statement, not her. Now here we are, we’re just saying that here we have a student that sat right next to MADELENE who hears you say it and she can’t determine whether HOWARD said it or you said it? I’m just saying…
Me: No she can’t, and if she could, she’s under a lot of pressure from her peers to give that statement.
HO: Well you told them to go out and write the statements.
Me: the statements they wrote for me didn’t say that. They just said that Ms. UNTAMED never said anything rude, she didn’t call MADELENE a slut.
HO: Ok For the record, can you make a notation I mean I see you writing that Ms. UNTAMED’s not providing any of the statements that she has of the students.
Me: How can I provide something when I don’t know exactly what I’m being charged with? I could bring something like this (patomiming an armload of stuff) here. I didn’t know the allegations before I entered this room. I could imagine them, but I’m not going to bring a whole briefcase full of stuff until I know the specific allegations that I’m being asked about.
HO: I asked you am I going to see those and you said…
Me: You want me to send them to you?
HO no no no I just wanted to see what these kids wrote.
Me: I can send you copies, but not the originals.
HO: I don’t need the originals. I was curious as to what they wrote. I’m not unreasonable, I just want to see what they wrote. This case is a pain in the neck.
ADVOCATE: How many more pages to you have there?
120 +9:38
HO: A couple of more pages.
Me: Since they’re already saying that I forced them to say these statements, I don’t know what good they are, but I can send them to you. I can send you copies if you want. I don’t know what good that would do me. Do you want them?
ADVOCATE: Do you want her to send you the copies?
HO: I’ll add them to the case, it’s no problem.
Me: And I’ll send you copies of the things the boys said that MADELENE said and what MADELENE said and that the boys said.
HO: … told the class that she was accused you of saying something that she did not say. Oh that you told the class that you were accused you of doing something that you did not do.
130:30 MINUTES
Ok CARRIE CAFRIN did not hear what you said to MADELENE. The class was noisy. They asked two students to write if you said anything to MADELENE. CARRIE stated that she wrote that she didn’t hear what was said, and if you stated anything, it probably wouldn’t have been bad.
Me: This is DAMARAS or CARRIE?
HO: CARRIE CAFRIN.
131:15 MINUTES
Friday, June 5, 2009
OSI HEARING minute 100 to minute 116
100:00 MINUTES
HEARING OFFICER: ALAN PLEET stated that you went to his home on Sunday about 9:00 AM and his dad woke him up and told him that his teacher was downstairs. (laughing) That’s gotta be some kind of wake up call! If this had happened when I was in school…
Me: No. I had called and made an appointment with that father.
HO: OK well, I’m just saying…according to HOWARD…(pauses to read further)
On Friday, October 7, 2008, ALAN wrote in his statement, Ms. XAVIER escorted ALAN, JORGE, and JAREL to your classroom. After Ms. XAVIER leaves, you take the three students to the back of the classroom, and ask them what did they write about you.
Me: Well, they had already threatened to write something about me, and the kids had come in that Friday saying “Change has come, change has come” and that wasn’t about the OBAMA election. It was about getting MS. UNTAMED fired.
101:36
HO: Did you pull them to the side?
Me: So I pulled them to the side and said so are you making allegations against me? Then they didn’t want to say anything, so I let them go.
HO: Was that the same day, Friday November 7, when XAVIER brought them in? You pulled them to the back?
Me: What happened first of all was that a whole bunch of kids came in yelling and screaming and saying that change has come and ALAN was going to get me fired…
HO: (interrupting )OK, OK….
Me: …so then I yelled at them because they were screaming and yelling. I yelled at them to sit down. Once they all sat down and were quiet, then the boys came in and I said, why are you late? And Ms. XAVIER brought back one, but there were a couple of others who came in too, so I don’t know if it was…. So there were a couple of kids who were late, and they were saying we’re gonna get you fired, we’re gonna get you fired. So I pulled them aside and said what is this about? Is this about what you said..that you were going to get me in trouble and blame me for something and get your friends all…
103:13
HO: Do you know which students Ms. XAVIER brought back?
Me: Well, it was one of them. It was either ALAN or JAREL…It probably wasn’t JAREL. I think he was already there screaming and yelling.
HO: OK, So Ms. XAVIER brought back a student and some other ones came in with them.
Me: Yes. Something like that…or just before… they were very excited, very disruptive. It was a really disruptive entrance.
103:42
HO: You’re saying that those students said “You’re going to be fired?”
Me: JAREL was saying something about“you’re gonna be fired,” “we’re going to get you fired” something like that.
HO: Then you took them to the back of the room and asked them discreetly…
Me: What’s this about, why were you late? It was more why were you late, and then I referred to what they had said… what they had threatened.
HO: Well you saw XAVIER bring them back.
Me: Yes.
HO: So why were you asking why they were late?
Me: Well there was one who came in, but there were others who came in late. I think they were probably hanging around. Before they came into class maybe talking, all excited, maybe they were coming up from lunch. I don’t know.
HO: So what did they say when you asked them why they were late?
Me: They were saying ALAN’s going to get you fired, something like that. But they were all just screaming and yelling. Some came in screaming and yelling, I got them to sit down. Others came in a little later, I got them to sit down.
HO: Did XAVIER bring someone in?
Me: Only one, I believe, ALAN.
HO: But you understood that the other ones were with XAVIER and then came in. Did any of them say we were with AP XAVIER?
Me: Something about Ms. XAVIER. They’re telling Ms. XAVIER, she’s going to get fired. Something like that.
106:00
ADVOCATE: Ms. XAVIER is escorting one student back to class and the others are hanging back.
Me: And they already know all about it.
ADVOCATE: That’s why they’re late, probably.
106:12 MINUTES
Me: Some kids are hanging back, other kids came in before them. It was kind of a trickle in.
ADVOCATE: And there was a lot of excitement, with the idea that they were going to get you fired. So its not really about you asking what…
Me: Yes.
HO: You said when you put them back there, you said, what is this about?
Me: Yeah, what is this about?
HO: Because she had previous knowledge that they were going to fabricate something against her.
ADVOCATE: Oh, not asking the whole bunch why they were so excited. It’s not really about you asking what ALAN was writing.
HO: But you said when you pulled them back there, you asked them, “What is this about?”
Me: Yeah, “What is this about”?
HO: Because she had previous knowledge that they were going to fabricate something against her.
ADV: Oh. Not just asking the whole bunch, why are you so excited.
Me: No, no, the boys that had threatened me I pulled them aside,..but ALAN, I didn’t because XAVIER brought him in so he probably just sat down.
107:40
HO: The three said that they could not tell you because Ms. XAVIER told them not to reveal what was said. You continued to tell them that they could say, and they said that they couldn’t, and you said, if you don’t tell me I will come to your house and that’s when JORGE started to cry. While at the house you mentioned a student named SILAS to ALAN’s father and told the father that SILAS and HOWARD were threatening that if she did not raise their grades. If you didn’t raise their grades, they would report you to the principal.
Me: We discussed that they had threatened to get me in trouble.
HO: If…
Me: I don’t know what the “if” was. I had given them a whole list of things they had to do, and they basically said that if I failed them, if I didn’t give them good grades…
109:03
HO: ALAN saw HOWARD poking MADELENE on the shoulder. HOWARD appeared to need something. MADELENE stated who’s poking me? Ms. UNTAMED stated, I think you’re used to boys touching you—not quoted but something to that effect.
(Pause while reading)
ADV: You said that you didn’t say…
HO: Did you ever ask any female students in the classroom to write a statement about whether you made any inappropriate statements in the class?
Me: Yes.
HO: To MADELENE, any inappropriate statements to MADELENE.
Me: Yes.
HO OK. And who were they?
Me: Um. At this point it’s hard for me to even remember their names, it’s been so long.
HO: Did they submit those statements to you?
Me: Yes.
HO: Do you have them?
Me: No. (not with me)
HO: You’re holding onto them like some trump cards?
Me: uh huh
110:14
HO OK, I guess we’re all playing cards at this table. When are they coming out. Let me just say this, don’t hold onto the trump cards too long. You know what happens when you’re caught with the trump cards in your hand.
Me: No I don’t play cards.
110:35
HO The game is over. Listen, you want to use your trump cards while the game is going on, ok not when the game is over.
Me: Well, I was also accused in one of PRINCIPAL P.’s letters that I had asked them to write the letters and that they had felt forced to.
ADVOCATE: That’s what Ms. PRINCIPAL P.’s alleging.
Me: I don’t know if there are any statements to that effect. They felt that they were victimized, by me asking them. If they did write statements I would like to see them…
But they were willing enough when I asked them, cause they were right up front. They were right near.
ADVOCATE: Because they were being bothered?
Me: Well, I asked them because the kids were screaming at me and saying that I had called MADELENE a slut, and I said to the three girls who were in front right next to MADELENE, have you ever heard me call MADELENE or anybody else a slut? And they said no, and I said would you mind writing that down.
HO: Listen. Wrong. You can’t do that. That’s tampering with an investigation. It’s not for you to do that. If the principal conducts an investigation or if I conduct an investigation—you’re the subject of the investigation…
Me: But there was no investigation, that’s when it happened.
HO: Well wait a minute. If there’s no investigation, why are you doing that, you see what I’m saying?
Me: There was no investigation that day.
HO: That you know of…
Me: They were yelling and screaming, saying you called MADELENE a slut, and so I asked three girls to write down, if they had ever heard me say anything like that, but there was no investigation going on.
HO: Listen, listen, what they are saying basically… No one’s saying that you called anyone quote unquote a slut. What they were saying basically was in the manner in which you said something about, allegedly, I’d better put allegedly in there. You allegedly said something regarding her used to being touched can be misconstrued or can be perceived that, oh, you’re used to being touched, aren’t you, something to that effect, that you indirectly called them a slut in their minds. No one’s saying that you called them a slut.
Me: Well, these are middle schoolers. I can’t control what’s going on in their minds.
HO: No one’s saying you called her a slut.
Me: Yeah, they did. The kids were yelling at me, and saying “You called MADELENE a slut”.
HO You gotta take it up. You have a problem, they’re misconstruing something, you have to take it to an AP. You take it to somebody and say listen…
Me: …Who are going to substantiate what they’re saying.
HO: Listen, listen…You’re bringing it forward. You’re a human being, you’re a teacher, we’re all people. You can say, well you know what this scenario came about in the class. This is exactly what I said. However, the students are taking it a different way. I’m sure that nobody would say that I actually called them a slut, but it was totally misunderstood, and I ‘m bringing it to the forefront and saying this is, this is what I observed, this is what happened, OK? For you to say now, oh let me..
Me: …get evidence that would corroborate
HO Correct, That’s right. Evidence when you say that a case hadn’t even existed...
Me: The case didn’t even exist yet..
HO: You’re saying that the case didn’t exist with respect to the grabbing of the hand or whatever…
114:59
Me: I’m just being proactive in trying to get my side, making sure that the facts get stated before they get twisted.
ADVOCATE: OK My notes say you didn’t say , “you should be used to being touched” you said somebody made that up.
Me: I said, “This is happening again?” HOWARD said, “you should be used to it”.
116:17
ADVOCATE; You were referring to, when you said this is happening again was that MADELENE had complained about something else and you had tried to help her and…
Me: uh, huh
ADVOCATE: …and then she retracted everything.
Me: Right. This time, I wanted her to write it down. This is what I’m saying to all of them.. write it down. Date it, sign it. Or, go to a counselor because if she didn’t want to do it right there, she should go to a counselor.
HO: Right.
Me: and so I said the same thing to the girls up front. Did you ever hear me say slut to MADELENE?—no I didn't say the word slut-- I said did you ever hear me say something like that to MADELENE? They said no and I said, would you please write that down? And that could be wrong, I didn’t know that was wrong, but that’s what I did.
116:17
HEARING OFFICER: ALAN PLEET stated that you went to his home on Sunday about 9:00 AM and his dad woke him up and told him that his teacher was downstairs. (laughing) That’s gotta be some kind of wake up call! If this had happened when I was in school…
Me: No. I had called and made an appointment with that father.
HO: OK well, I’m just saying…according to HOWARD…(pauses to read further)
On Friday, October 7, 2008, ALAN wrote in his statement, Ms. XAVIER escorted ALAN, JORGE, and JAREL to your classroom. After Ms. XAVIER leaves, you take the three students to the back of the classroom, and ask them what did they write about you.
Me: Well, they had already threatened to write something about me, and the kids had come in that Friday saying “Change has come, change has come” and that wasn’t about the OBAMA election. It was about getting MS. UNTAMED fired.
101:36
HO: Did you pull them to the side?
Me: So I pulled them to the side and said so are you making allegations against me? Then they didn’t want to say anything, so I let them go.
HO: Was that the same day, Friday November 7, when XAVIER brought them in? You pulled them to the back?
Me: What happened first of all was that a whole bunch of kids came in yelling and screaming and saying that change has come and ALAN was going to get me fired…
HO: (interrupting )OK, OK….
Me: …so then I yelled at them because they were screaming and yelling. I yelled at them to sit down. Once they all sat down and were quiet, then the boys came in and I said, why are you late? And Ms. XAVIER brought back one, but there were a couple of others who came in too, so I don’t know if it was…. So there were a couple of kids who were late, and they were saying we’re gonna get you fired, we’re gonna get you fired. So I pulled them aside and said what is this about? Is this about what you said..that you were going to get me in trouble and blame me for something and get your friends all…
103:13
HO: Do you know which students Ms. XAVIER brought back?
Me: Well, it was one of them. It was either ALAN or JAREL…It probably wasn’t JAREL. I think he was already there screaming and yelling.
HO: OK, So Ms. XAVIER brought back a student and some other ones came in with them.
Me: Yes. Something like that…or just before… they were very excited, very disruptive. It was a really disruptive entrance.
103:42
HO: You’re saying that those students said “You’re going to be fired?”
Me: JAREL was saying something about“you’re gonna be fired,” “we’re going to get you fired” something like that.
HO: Then you took them to the back of the room and asked them discreetly…
Me: What’s this about, why were you late? It was more why were you late, and then I referred to what they had said… what they had threatened.
HO: Well you saw XAVIER bring them back.
Me: Yes.
HO: So why were you asking why they were late?
Me: Well there was one who came in, but there were others who came in late. I think they were probably hanging around. Before they came into class maybe talking, all excited, maybe they were coming up from lunch. I don’t know.
HO: So what did they say when you asked them why they were late?
Me: They were saying ALAN’s going to get you fired, something like that. But they were all just screaming and yelling. Some came in screaming and yelling, I got them to sit down. Others came in a little later, I got them to sit down.
HO: Did XAVIER bring someone in?
Me: Only one, I believe, ALAN.
HO: But you understood that the other ones were with XAVIER and then came in. Did any of them say we were with AP XAVIER?
Me: Something about Ms. XAVIER. They’re telling Ms. XAVIER, she’s going to get fired. Something like that.
106:00
ADVOCATE: Ms. XAVIER is escorting one student back to class and the others are hanging back.
Me: And they already know all about it.
ADVOCATE: That’s why they’re late, probably.
106:12 MINUTES
Me: Some kids are hanging back, other kids came in before them. It was kind of a trickle in.
ADVOCATE: And there was a lot of excitement, with the idea that they were going to get you fired. So its not really about you asking what…
Me: Yes.
HO: You said when you put them back there, you said, what is this about?
Me: Yeah, what is this about?
HO: Because she had previous knowledge that they were going to fabricate something against her.
ADVOCATE: Oh, not asking the whole bunch why they were so excited. It’s not really about you asking what ALAN was writing.
HO: But you said when you pulled them back there, you asked them, “What is this about?”
Me: Yeah, “What is this about”?
HO: Because she had previous knowledge that they were going to fabricate something against her.
ADV: Oh. Not just asking the whole bunch, why are you so excited.
Me: No, no, the boys that had threatened me I pulled them aside,..but ALAN, I didn’t because XAVIER brought him in so he probably just sat down.
107:40
HO: The three said that they could not tell you because Ms. XAVIER told them not to reveal what was said. You continued to tell them that they could say, and they said that they couldn’t, and you said, if you don’t tell me I will come to your house and that’s when JORGE started to cry. While at the house you mentioned a student named SILAS to ALAN’s father and told the father that SILAS and HOWARD were threatening that if she did not raise their grades. If you didn’t raise their grades, they would report you to the principal.
Me: We discussed that they had threatened to get me in trouble.
HO: If…
Me: I don’t know what the “if” was. I had given them a whole list of things they had to do, and they basically said that if I failed them, if I didn’t give them good grades…
109:03
HO: ALAN saw HOWARD poking MADELENE on the shoulder. HOWARD appeared to need something. MADELENE stated who’s poking me? Ms. UNTAMED stated, I think you’re used to boys touching you—not quoted but something to that effect.
(Pause while reading)
ADV: You said that you didn’t say…
HO: Did you ever ask any female students in the classroom to write a statement about whether you made any inappropriate statements in the class?
Me: Yes.
HO: To MADELENE, any inappropriate statements to MADELENE.
Me: Yes.
HO OK. And who were they?
Me: Um. At this point it’s hard for me to even remember their names, it’s been so long.
HO: Did they submit those statements to you?
Me: Yes.
HO: Do you have them?
Me: No. (not with me)
HO: You’re holding onto them like some trump cards?
Me: uh huh
110:14
HO OK, I guess we’re all playing cards at this table. When are they coming out. Let me just say this, don’t hold onto the trump cards too long. You know what happens when you’re caught with the trump cards in your hand.
Me: No I don’t play cards.
110:35
HO The game is over. Listen, you want to use your trump cards while the game is going on, ok not when the game is over.
Me: Well, I was also accused in one of PRINCIPAL P.’s letters that I had asked them to write the letters and that they had felt forced to.
ADVOCATE: That’s what Ms. PRINCIPAL P.’s alleging.
Me: I don’t know if there are any statements to that effect. They felt that they were victimized, by me asking them. If they did write statements I would like to see them…
But they were willing enough when I asked them, cause they were right up front. They were right near.
ADVOCATE: Because they were being bothered?
Me: Well, I asked them because the kids were screaming at me and saying that I had called MADELENE a slut, and I said to the three girls who were in front right next to MADELENE, have you ever heard me call MADELENE or anybody else a slut? And they said no, and I said would you mind writing that down.
HO: Listen. Wrong. You can’t do that. That’s tampering with an investigation. It’s not for you to do that. If the principal conducts an investigation or if I conduct an investigation—you’re the subject of the investigation…
Me: But there was no investigation, that’s when it happened.
HO: Well wait a minute. If there’s no investigation, why are you doing that, you see what I’m saying?
Me: There was no investigation that day.
HO: That you know of…
Me: They were yelling and screaming, saying you called MADELENE a slut, and so I asked three girls to write down, if they had ever heard me say anything like that, but there was no investigation going on.
HO: Listen, listen, what they are saying basically… No one’s saying that you called anyone quote unquote a slut. What they were saying basically was in the manner in which you said something about, allegedly, I’d better put allegedly in there. You allegedly said something regarding her used to being touched can be misconstrued or can be perceived that, oh, you’re used to being touched, aren’t you, something to that effect, that you indirectly called them a slut in their minds. No one’s saying that you called them a slut.
Me: Well, these are middle schoolers. I can’t control what’s going on in their minds.
HO: No one’s saying you called her a slut.
Me: Yeah, they did. The kids were yelling at me, and saying “You called MADELENE a slut”.
HO You gotta take it up. You have a problem, they’re misconstruing something, you have to take it to an AP. You take it to somebody and say listen…
Me: …Who are going to substantiate what they’re saying.
HO: Listen, listen…You’re bringing it forward. You’re a human being, you’re a teacher, we’re all people. You can say, well you know what this scenario came about in the class. This is exactly what I said. However, the students are taking it a different way. I’m sure that nobody would say that I actually called them a slut, but it was totally misunderstood, and I ‘m bringing it to the forefront and saying this is, this is what I observed, this is what happened, OK? For you to say now, oh let me..
Me: …get evidence that would corroborate
HO Correct, That’s right. Evidence when you say that a case hadn’t even existed...
Me: The case didn’t even exist yet..
HO: You’re saying that the case didn’t exist with respect to the grabbing of the hand or whatever…
114:59
Me: I’m just being proactive in trying to get my side, making sure that the facts get stated before they get twisted.
ADVOCATE: OK My notes say you didn’t say , “you should be used to being touched” you said somebody made that up.
Me: I said, “This is happening again?” HOWARD said, “you should be used to it”.
116:17
ADVOCATE; You were referring to, when you said this is happening again was that MADELENE had complained about something else and you had tried to help her and…
Me: uh, huh
ADVOCATE: …and then she retracted everything.
Me: Right. This time, I wanted her to write it down. This is what I’m saying to all of them.. write it down. Date it, sign it. Or, go to a counselor because if she didn’t want to do it right there, she should go to a counselor.
HO: Right.
Me: and so I said the same thing to the girls up front. Did you ever hear me say slut to MADELENE?—no I didn't say the word slut-- I said did you ever hear me say something like that to MADELENE? They said no and I said, would you please write that down? And that could be wrong, I didn’t know that was wrong, but that’s what I did.
116:17
Thursday, June 4, 2009
OSI HEARING: Minute 82 to minute 100
82:45
HO: Did HOWARD lodge any kind of allegation against you?
Me: Yeah, he said I grabbed his arm.
HO: OK. Did you visit HOWARD before or after he said you grabbed his arm?
Me: That was before the allegation was given to me.
HO: OK. When did you visit HOWARD—the home visit?
Me: This was …just after election day.
HO: OK.
Me: The weekend after election day. And I hadn’t received any allegations.
84:00
So that’s why I said that I had to do that contact with MADELENE at about the same. time.
HO: OK. We established that election day was November 4. OK. HOWARD made an allegation that you had grabbed his hand on November 3.
Me: Not to me.
HO: He didn’t have to make the allegation to you.
Me: But I didn’t know about it.
HO: Did you grab his hand on November 3?
Me: No.
HO: No?
Me: No.
HO Who investigated that?
Me: Um
HO: PRINCIPAL P.?
Me: I don’t know.
HO: That’s corporal punishment, right?
Me: Yes, but that meeting was not held until after I talked to the parents.
85:07
HO: Ok but at some point you had a meeting. Was it a disciplinary conference about that incident? What was determined from that.
Me: That she believed him.
HO OK, so…you have a situation, again I’m not there. I’m the investigator, I’m not there in any of these things. You have an incident on November 3, alleged incident.
Me: But to me it wasn’t an incident. I didn’t know anything about the incident until I was informed by the principal after these conversations took place.
HO I understand. I understand. There’s an alleged incident according to HOWARD on November 3 where Ms. UNTAMED allegedly pulled HOWARD’s hand. He was writing down on paper problems that he had with Ms UNTAMED. According to HOWARD, you grabbed and pulled his hand and took the paper from him, OK? And stated, stop writing things about me. This is what HOWARD states. After that incident you visited occured HOWARD’s home, very early, unannounced and you told HOWARD’s mother that he lied and that you never grabbed his hand, only grabbed the paper. And you stated to his mother that SILAS is making comments and threatening you and that if you fail him he would tell his parents and you stated that all the students are a negative influence on HOWARD and making him tell lies on you. Does any of that ring a bell?
Me: OK what happened was that we were having a test and the boys were calling out—same four boys—were calling out that MADELENE was cheating and so since they were making noise during the test I gave them each a piece of paper—not looseleaf, a piece of white computer paper --and said if you have something that you want me to know or if you have a complaint, write it down.
87:50
HO During the test?
Me: During the test, because they were calling out, saying, “she’s cheating, and you’re not paying any attention. She’s cheating. So I said, whatever you want to say, write it down on this piece of paper.
HO Was she cheating?
Me: Well, let’s leave MADELENE and go back to the boys. SILAS PATECO, HOWARD, JAREL, and I forget if there was anybody else, oh, ALAN. I gave them paper so that if they had complaints or if they were seeing anything that they were very upset about, not to call out during the test—not to call out and disturb everybody, but write it down. So I gave them the paper, and they were quietly writing, and everybody else was doing the test, and I went around picking up the scantrons—there was no other paper on the desk—only scantrons and the white paper I gave the boys to write on and so then I said, ok, give me the paper, so I took the paper from a couple of the boys and then HOWARD said, “I’m not going to give it to you. And I said, “What’s the point of me giving you the paper to write on if you’re not going to give it to me and so he say’s “UHHH” and he was going like this (giving me the paper and then snatching it back when I went to take hold of it) and so I was reaching for it, and as he was going like that (waving it around), but there was no grabbing. There might have been contact, because he was going like this, like playing around and that was it. And so I didn’t know that that was going to be an allegation until later.
90:11
Me: I’ve got to check the dates because I have the dates of that test—was it the third?
HO: So during a test some male students were saying that MADELENE was cheating.
Me: That she had answers written on her hand.
HO: Did she?
Me: Well I didn’t check to see if she had answers written on her hand, no.
HO: Why not.
Me: Because I didn’t believe them. She didn’t look like she was cheating and there was no answers to be written on hands for that test. She couldn’t have written down the answers ahead of time for the test. It wasn’t that kind of test.
ADVOCATE: You were trying to shut the boys up by giving them a paper so that they wouldn’t disturb the whole class.
Me: That’s basically it. And I have those papers that the boys wrote, and again they don’t have dates and they aren’t signed, but I have the papers that HOWARD wrote.
HO How did you get HOWARD’s?
91:35
Me: He finally, you know, he was going like this (waving the paper around making like to give it to me and then pulling it back as I tried to take it) and we made contact. There was no grabbing. Finally he just let go.
HO: OK
Me: It was playing around.
HO: Did you bring the letters?
Me: The letters that they wrote? No.
HO: Wouldn’t that have been key to that corporal punishment allegation, that they saw something that HOWARD had wrote?
Me: There was no signature and no date.
HO: It doesn’t matter. It’s either his handwriting or it isn’t. You say this is what HOWARD wrote.
ADVOCATE: And what happened to those papers?
Me: I have them at home. I also have a paper that MADELENE wrote that said “I wasn’t cheating” and I told her, “I know.”
HO: I mean that would be key. “Hey this is what HOWARD wrote about MADELENE cheating.
ADVOCATE: Did they give you a chance to respond to that allegation that you touched HOWARD’s hand?
Me: I said that I hadn’t.
ADVOCATE: And you’re investigating that as well, or is this part of something else?
HO No, no. So she’s saying…I’m not even investigating that. That’s something that PRINCIPAL P. investigated.
Me: To be honest, if PRINCIPAL P. didn’t know about this, it’s all the better for me ,because they just would have worked something out to explain it or explain it away.
HO: No, it’s not better for you if it’s going to end up being substantiated.
Me: She substantiates anything that they say against me.
HO: Listen, if you say that you have something that shows something that HOWARD wrote.
Me: It wasn’t dated and it wasn’t signed
HO: It doesn’t matter. Did they write it or didn’t they write it.
Me: She wouldn’t believe me. She always substantiates the kids over me. As they said, “We’ll get our friends…” which they did, they all wrote their little statements that I grabbed him and now its substantiated because they have witnesses.
HO: Ok the way it looks is… I understand what you’re telling me, ok the way it looks, you’re tampering with an investigation is that here you have a situtation in which HOWARD’s saying that on November 3 he was writing something down. You pulled it away from him and then that same weekend you show up at his house and say oh no no no, it’s not what HOWARD said it’s something totally different. You’re saying in your defense that hey this is what happened, but you didn’t grab it or anything like that. You felt that he was going to concoct something so you went out to do damage control basically.
Me: No, I didn’t know that that was going to me the concoction.
HO: You knew that something was going to be concocted.
Me: At some point.
ADVOCATE: At some point. But not necessarily that incident.
Me: Not necessarily that.
ADVOCATE: Because you didn’t know at the time that there was a complaint, yet.
Me: No. There was no complaint yet.
HO: And HOWARD is saying here…
Me: They already said that they were going to get me in trouble.
95:30
HO: HOWARD stated that he tapped MADELENE on the shoulder to find a page number and she said “What” and you asked MADELENE why she was screaming and MADELENE stated that HOWARD touched me and you said, I guess you’re used to people touching you all the time. Something to that effect. MADELENE became angry at the comment and remained quiet, and HOWARD said that he thought it was an attempt to portray MADELENE as a slut. On the same day in question regarding… Is ALAN one of the kids? ALAN said the same thing that you visited his home the same day that you visited HOWARD’s. After class HOWARD reported to Ms. XAVIER that you had grabbed him and at some point you asked him what he told Ms. XAVIER.
Me: I didn’t even know that he had gone to Ms. XAVIER. I didn’t know that this was going to be the allegation. To me it was just, give me the paper don’t give me the paper, give me the paper and that was it. It was fooling around. So it was more of the same, and again remember, they’re still bothering MADELENE, they’re saying that she’s cheating, their disrupting the class, interrupting a test, and so I followed up and made home visits.
98:00
HO: Well let me ask you this, when did you first learn that there was an allegation made against you by HOWARD?
Me: It would take a couple of weeks because first they would give me a letter saying that I should meet with them and then I would meet with them and I would be given the allegation. But again it would take at least two weeks before I was informed about who was accusing me of what.
ADVOCATE: I was going to say you couldn’t ask him about something if you didn’t know there was any kind of…
Me: There was no question and answer. We were just discussing. First of all I told the mothers about the threats and then the kids, it did tip me off that they were being questioned because then in front of the parents they told me about grabbing and things like that. So we did discuss it with the parents when I got there, but I didn’t know that the allegations had been made yet.
100:04
HO: Did HOWARD lodge any kind of allegation against you?
Me: Yeah, he said I grabbed his arm.
HO: OK. Did you visit HOWARD before or after he said you grabbed his arm?
Me: That was before the allegation was given to me.
HO: OK. When did you visit HOWARD—the home visit?
Me: This was …just after election day.
HO: OK.
Me: The weekend after election day. And I hadn’t received any allegations.
84:00
So that’s why I said that I had to do that contact with MADELENE at about the same. time.
HO: OK. We established that election day was November 4. OK. HOWARD made an allegation that you had grabbed his hand on November 3.
Me: Not to me.
HO: He didn’t have to make the allegation to you.
Me: But I didn’t know about it.
HO: Did you grab his hand on November 3?
Me: No.
HO: No?
Me: No.
HO Who investigated that?
Me: Um
HO: PRINCIPAL P.?
Me: I don’t know.
HO: That’s corporal punishment, right?
Me: Yes, but that meeting was not held until after I talked to the parents.
85:07
HO: Ok but at some point you had a meeting. Was it a disciplinary conference about that incident? What was determined from that.
Me: That she believed him.
HO OK, so…you have a situation, again I’m not there. I’m the investigator, I’m not there in any of these things. You have an incident on November 3, alleged incident.
Me: But to me it wasn’t an incident. I didn’t know anything about the incident until I was informed by the principal after these conversations took place.
HO I understand. I understand. There’s an alleged incident according to HOWARD on November 3 where Ms. UNTAMED allegedly pulled HOWARD’s hand. He was writing down on paper problems that he had with Ms UNTAMED. According to HOWARD, you grabbed and pulled his hand and took the paper from him, OK? And stated, stop writing things about me. This is what HOWARD states. After that incident you visited occured HOWARD’s home, very early, unannounced and you told HOWARD’s mother that he lied and that you never grabbed his hand, only grabbed the paper. And you stated to his mother that SILAS is making comments and threatening you and that if you fail him he would tell his parents and you stated that all the students are a negative influence on HOWARD and making him tell lies on you. Does any of that ring a bell?
Me: OK what happened was that we were having a test and the boys were calling out—same four boys—were calling out that MADELENE was cheating and so since they were making noise during the test I gave them each a piece of paper—not looseleaf, a piece of white computer paper --and said if you have something that you want me to know or if you have a complaint, write it down.
87:50
HO During the test?
Me: During the test, because they were calling out, saying, “she’s cheating, and you’re not paying any attention. She’s cheating. So I said, whatever you want to say, write it down on this piece of paper.
HO Was she cheating?
Me: Well, let’s leave MADELENE and go back to the boys. SILAS PATECO, HOWARD, JAREL, and I forget if there was anybody else, oh, ALAN. I gave them paper so that if they had complaints or if they were seeing anything that they were very upset about, not to call out during the test—not to call out and disturb everybody, but write it down. So I gave them the paper, and they were quietly writing, and everybody else was doing the test, and I went around picking up the scantrons—there was no other paper on the desk—only scantrons and the white paper I gave the boys to write on and so then I said, ok, give me the paper, so I took the paper from a couple of the boys and then HOWARD said, “I’m not going to give it to you. And I said, “What’s the point of me giving you the paper to write on if you’re not going to give it to me and so he say’s “UHHH” and he was going like this (giving me the paper and then snatching it back when I went to take hold of it) and so I was reaching for it, and as he was going like that (waving it around), but there was no grabbing. There might have been contact, because he was going like this, like playing around and that was it. And so I didn’t know that that was going to be an allegation until later.
90:11
Me: I’ve got to check the dates because I have the dates of that test—was it the third?
HO: So during a test some male students were saying that MADELENE was cheating.
Me: That she had answers written on her hand.
HO: Did she?
Me: Well I didn’t check to see if she had answers written on her hand, no.
HO: Why not.
Me: Because I didn’t believe them. She didn’t look like she was cheating and there was no answers to be written on hands for that test. She couldn’t have written down the answers ahead of time for the test. It wasn’t that kind of test.
ADVOCATE: You were trying to shut the boys up by giving them a paper so that they wouldn’t disturb the whole class.
Me: That’s basically it. And I have those papers that the boys wrote, and again they don’t have dates and they aren’t signed, but I have the papers that HOWARD wrote.
HO How did you get HOWARD’s?
91:35
Me: He finally, you know, he was going like this (waving the paper around making like to give it to me and then pulling it back as I tried to take it) and we made contact. There was no grabbing. Finally he just let go.
HO: OK
Me: It was playing around.
HO: Did you bring the letters?
Me: The letters that they wrote? No.
HO: Wouldn’t that have been key to that corporal punishment allegation, that they saw something that HOWARD had wrote?
Me: There was no signature and no date.
HO: It doesn’t matter. It’s either his handwriting or it isn’t. You say this is what HOWARD wrote.
ADVOCATE: And what happened to those papers?
Me: I have them at home. I also have a paper that MADELENE wrote that said “I wasn’t cheating” and I told her, “I know.”
HO: I mean that would be key. “Hey this is what HOWARD wrote about MADELENE cheating.
ADVOCATE: Did they give you a chance to respond to that allegation that you touched HOWARD’s hand?
Me: I said that I hadn’t.
ADVOCATE: And you’re investigating that as well, or is this part of something else?
HO No, no. So she’s saying…I’m not even investigating that. That’s something that PRINCIPAL P. investigated.
Me: To be honest, if PRINCIPAL P. didn’t know about this, it’s all the better for me ,because they just would have worked something out to explain it or explain it away.
HO: No, it’s not better for you if it’s going to end up being substantiated.
Me: She substantiates anything that they say against me.
HO: Listen, if you say that you have something that shows something that HOWARD wrote.
Me: It wasn’t dated and it wasn’t signed
HO: It doesn’t matter. Did they write it or didn’t they write it.
Me: She wouldn’t believe me. She always substantiates the kids over me. As they said, “We’ll get our friends…” which they did, they all wrote their little statements that I grabbed him and now its substantiated because they have witnesses.
HO: Ok the way it looks is… I understand what you’re telling me, ok the way it looks, you’re tampering with an investigation is that here you have a situtation in which HOWARD’s saying that on November 3 he was writing something down. You pulled it away from him and then that same weekend you show up at his house and say oh no no no, it’s not what HOWARD said it’s something totally different. You’re saying in your defense that hey this is what happened, but you didn’t grab it or anything like that. You felt that he was going to concoct something so you went out to do damage control basically.
Me: No, I didn’t know that that was going to me the concoction.
HO: You knew that something was going to be concocted.
Me: At some point.
ADVOCATE: At some point. But not necessarily that incident.
Me: Not necessarily that.
ADVOCATE: Because you didn’t know at the time that there was a complaint, yet.
Me: No. There was no complaint yet.
HO: And HOWARD is saying here…
Me: They already said that they were going to get me in trouble.
95:30
HO: HOWARD stated that he tapped MADELENE on the shoulder to find a page number and she said “What” and you asked MADELENE why she was screaming and MADELENE stated that HOWARD touched me and you said, I guess you’re used to people touching you all the time. Something to that effect. MADELENE became angry at the comment and remained quiet, and HOWARD said that he thought it was an attempt to portray MADELENE as a slut. On the same day in question regarding… Is ALAN one of the kids? ALAN said the same thing that you visited his home the same day that you visited HOWARD’s. After class HOWARD reported to Ms. XAVIER that you had grabbed him and at some point you asked him what he told Ms. XAVIER.
Me: I didn’t even know that he had gone to Ms. XAVIER. I didn’t know that this was going to be the allegation. To me it was just, give me the paper don’t give me the paper, give me the paper and that was it. It was fooling around. So it was more of the same, and again remember, they’re still bothering MADELENE, they’re saying that she’s cheating, their disrupting the class, interrupting a test, and so I followed up and made home visits.
98:00
HO: Well let me ask you this, when did you first learn that there was an allegation made against you by HOWARD?
Me: It would take a couple of weeks because first they would give me a letter saying that I should meet with them and then I would meet with them and I would be given the allegation. But again it would take at least two weeks before I was informed about who was accusing me of what.
ADVOCATE: I was going to say you couldn’t ask him about something if you didn’t know there was any kind of…
Me: There was no question and answer. We were just discussing. First of all I told the mothers about the threats and then the kids, it did tip me off that they were being questioned because then in front of the parents they told me about grabbing and things like that. So we did discuss it with the parents when I got there, but I didn’t know that the allegations had been made yet.
100:04
Tuesday, June 2, 2009
HEARING: Minute 60 to minute 84
60:15
HO: I don’t know. I’ve heard a lot of parent-teacher conferences. A lot of times you have parents who have a problem with a teacher or if there is a problem between a teacher and a parent you generally would have an assistant principal present or a principal just to make sure that everything goes smoothly—there’s some kind of order you know in case a parent gets upset or something like that. I mean I never heard of a situation in which the teacher refuses to speak and a teacher even having UFT present to just have a discussion about the child. I don’t understand.
ADVOCATE: You know what I don’t understand. What is being alleged that rises to being investigated? I’m not really sure I get this. What’s behind the whole thing, if you don’t mind?
HO: Well the thing is, this meeting with SILAS PAJECO happened on November 14, OK? Parent’s upset about the meeting or lack thereof. Parent is hearing that Ms. UNTAMED visits some of the students’ in the class homes and spoke badly about her son, SILAS.
ADVOCATE: So Ms. UNTAMED is alleged to have gone to students’ homes you mean of the four boys?
HO: Right, I guess, students, yes, to complain about SILAS.
ADVOCATE: This is the first time we’re hearing this…
HO: I know, I know.
ADVOCATE: Up until now it’s just a telephone conversation…
HO: Well it started off with a telephone conversation with MADELENE’s mom.
ADVOCATE: So all of that is just background to what we’re really getting at.
62:02:23
HO: No. What happens is… No, the allegation started with a conversation, just what I read.
ADVOCATE: Sorry, I’m a little thick today. I mean, I made many calls like this. I used the word sexual, and I never got in trouble for it. So I don’t understand.
HO: This allegation started with SOREA BENDERS, mother of student MADELENE BENDERS who reported that Ms. UNTAMED contacted her at home and stated that MADELENE was being sexually harassed. That another student was sexually harassing her daughter and she wanted to meet away from school to discuss the matter. And the daughter stated that she wasn’t being sexually harassed. I interviewed the daughter. I interviewed the mother. The mother is saying that Ms. UNTAMED said that SILAS PAJECO is sexually harassing the daughter. The daughter is saying that Ms. UNTAMED said that SILAS PAJECO was sexually harassing the daughter. Now, on November 14…
ADVOCATE: Wait a minute. Up to now is there anything that requires an investigation? Is it because Ms. UNTAMED may have mentioned another student by name, and specifically to a parent? Is that the problem?
HO: Well, I’ll get to it. I’ll get to it. They’re saying that this occurred on November 16. MADELENE’s mom got this phone call on November 16, but on November 14 this meeting occurred at the school. So the way it looks is that on November 14 you have this meeting that you are uncomfortable with regarding SILAS PAJECO. The mother mentions in the meeting that, hey, I’m hearing from other students that you’re saying bad things about my son. And you respond by removing yourself from the meeting. This is on November 14. But two days later MADELENE’s mom gets a call about some sexual harassment thing about SILAS.
Me: From the get go you see I said that November 16 just isn’t right.
HO: They seem to have it…
Me: How do they have it? Because when they started talking about this it was in January.
HO Because they wanted to see you. The letter is in January. This actually started in November.
Me: How do they know what the exact date was?
HO: The reason why was because they remember that they wanted to speak with you at the parent-teacher conference, and you were a no show that evening.
Me: OK Fine, but I could have talked to her two weeks prior.
HO That ‘s two days before the parent-teacher conference. This conversation was on a Sunday.
Me: No.
HO: No, the dates of the parent-teacher conference are correct. If their recollection is two days prior to the parent teacher conference.
Me: Well, their recollection is wrong. What is reasonable is to call them immediately after the October 24 Referral.
ADVOCATE: So the complaint…
Me: I didn’t call on November 16.
HO: I’m not saying when you called. I’m not saying when you didn’t call.
Me: That’s important now. I didn’t know that the date was important before, and I said from the get go that November 16 was too late.
ADVOCATE: So the basic complaint is that Ms. UNTAMED is harassing SILAS PAJECO.
Me: That I’m going after him? And that I’m ruining his reputation…
ADVOCATE: such as it is…
Me: as an upstanding young man?
ADVOCATE: Is that the nature of why we’re here?
HO: Um…Partly.
ADVOCATE: There’s more.
Me: There’s a lot more?
HO: Yes, there’s more.
Me: What I’m saying is that I don’t know if I wrote down exactly when I did it, but it was very close to October 24.
67:40
HO: Listen, it says here. On January 20 of 2009 (Reading) “ Ms. PRINCIPAL P., My name is SOREA BENDERS. I am MADELENE BENEDERS’ mother. This is to inform you that MS UNTAMED the science teacher had called me Sunday, November 16, 2008 to inform me that there is a child in my daughter’s class that is constantly sexually harassing her, and I should complain so that the school can remove the student from her class. Ms. UNTAMED had told me that the students name is SILAS PAJECO. I am writing you this letter so that you can please investigate if it is true or not. I spoke to my daughter and she said that the student was not sexually harassing her or bothering her. Ms. UNTAMED has called me a few times. She has invited me to meet with her at a diner about this. She told me that she cannot meet at the school, but that she could meet with me at a diner which I did not agree to attend. I had made many phone calls to the school to meet with me at the school and she never replied.” This is the letter. (He briefly shows the letter to the ADVOCATE and to me).
Me: And what was the date of the letter?
HO January 20.
Me: Well I don’t have it here, but I was given another letter that didn’t say anything like this.
ADVOCATE: This letter is to PRINCIPAL P.
Me: Well the thing is that I was given a letter by PRINCIPL P. that said something totally different. So that might be a further allegation, I don’t know. I'm not going to introduce it myself.
HO: So this is where.
Me: The thing is that I didn’t call her on Sunday, November 16 because the main idea of calling her was so that MADELENE could make up some work that she had not finished. Besides that I just wanted to make sure that they talked about what was happening in class. And so the Referral was before October 31 and the phone call would have come probably before October 31 or in the first week after because MADELENE hadn’t gotten her work in and I was giving her a last chance to get her work in . So it would have been just before October 31 or just after October 31 that I had this whole conversation with her mother and that the fact that she was cued on that date because that date makes me look bad.
HO: She was what?
Me: She was cued on that date.
HO: What do you mean cued?
Me: She was told by administrators that that would be a very convenient date for her to say that this conversation took place. That’s not when it took place.
HO: …by administrators
Me: Yes.
HO: Sunday, November 16?
Me: It just makes the case look worse for me.
HO: You’re saying that PRINCIPAL P…
Me: I’m saying that PRINCIPAL P…
HO I’m just asking because you said administrators…
Me: OK, PRINCIPAL P.. She’s the principal she can take full responsibility.
HO You’re saying that PRINCIPAL P. concocted this? This Sunday thing?
Me: Yes.
HO Why?
Me: Because I earn $100,000 and PRINCIPAL P. and I don’t get along.
HO Because what?
Me: She can get rid of a $100,000 teacher who is constantly telling her that “No, science should be taught this way and not that way.” OK? That’s basically it. She’s getting rid of someone who she would rather not deal with and save herself a lot of money in the process.
HO You feel like that’s the reason why.
Me: Yes. This is the only way that she can get rid of me.
71:30
HO: OK. Another case here. Regarding MADELENE.
Me: This is still MADELENE?
HO: Yes. This is another case. While I was conducting the investigation regarding this, I learned from MADELENE BENDERS that on January 28, 2009 when MADELENE was touched on her shoulder by a male student in the class, Ms. UNTAMED told her, “you should be used to being touched”. That you told MADELENE that she should be used to being touched. In addition, (reading) “Investigator Hayden Sands stated that he has also learned that Ms. UNTAMED has been asking students what they had told AP XAVIER about her.
Me: Asking…
HO: I’ll get to that.
ADVOCATE: …what they’re saying about her to who, you?
HO: No, to XAVIER.
HO: Did you make a statement like that?
Me: That she should be used to being touched? No. One of the boys who had been teasing her--and I sat them very far away from each other, but without my noticing he had located himself near enough to her so that he could go like that with his pen. HOWARD MAHAN. He was one of the four boys who had been teasing her.
He had been separated but he took the position of someone who was absent or who hadn’t come in, an empty chair. He moved quickly into an empty chair…
ADV: So that he could bother her and he poked her with his pen.
Me: Right, and so she said, Ms. UNTAMED, Ms. UNTAMED, HOWARD is poking me with his pen, and I looked at her because we had this thing where she had come to me for help, and I had gone out of my way and got into trouble trying to find out what happened and then she denied everything she had told me. So what I said to her was, “So this is happening again?”
HO Is that what you said?
Me: Yes, So this is happening AGAIN?
HO: You’re quoting yourself?
Me: Yes. “So this is happening again?” And this is as though to say, let this be a lesson to you. I said AGAIN, with emphasis. And then I told her that she needed to write it down or she could go and talk to a counselor.
HO You told her in front of the class?
Me: Yes, and I told her to sign it and date it this time. Right it down, sign it and date it, or I’ll give you a pass to your counselor. And then HOWARD got up and said, “So what she’s saying is that you’re used to getting touched, you’re used to getting touched”. This was HOWARD. This was HOWARD’s slant on what I said to MADELENE. “You should be used to it” because I said “again”.
77:53
HO So HOWARD stated that…go ahead
Me: That Ms. UNTAMED said, or what she’s saying is “ you should be used to it, or you’re used to boys touching you, or you like it.
ADVOCATE: That’s what he thought you meant by…
Me: No he was trying to get me in trouble. He often took statements that I said that were totally normal and turned them into derogatory statements. And that was a little joke of his.
HO Did you visit HOWARD’s home on Saturday or Sunday morning?
Me: Yes, on Sunday morning.
79:00
Me: And I also visited ALAN’S home and…I visited the four boys.
HO: Did you have any problem with HOWARD? Did HOWARD make any allegations against you?
Me: HOWARD was one of the four boys who threatened to make allegations against me and have their friends back them up. So very close to this date, before they got going with whatever allegations that they wanted to do, I decided that I needed to make home visits with the boys who had threatened me because this could fall right into PRINCIPAL P.’s lap and when you have these allegations… when you get the ball rolling…
HO What allegations existed though?
Me: … before they ever did, I wanted to talk to the boys’ parents and say that “ your son said this” and the group that I talked to I said “your boys are saying that they are going to get me in trouble by saying that I did something, by accusing me of something and then getting their friends to back them up. And I went immediately because now I don’t care about the back and forth inappropriate language. That was the least of my worries. What I talked to each one of these parents about including SILAS PAJECO’S was that they were threatening me and saying that they were going to get me in trouble, they were going to accuse me of doing something and then get their friends to lie for them and that nobody was going to believe me, and so I did home visits out of the school. I didn’t want the parents anywhere near the school until I made them very clear.
HO Why didn’t you just call the parents?
Me: Because I wanted to be with the child and the parents at the same time and that way they caved. They all caved. They said yes, that was what was said.
HO: But you made home visits for what reason?
Me: To make sure that the kids would tell the truth to their parents immediately before they got any little plot going. Once you start that, a teacher’s reputation can be totally ruined by just anything they say.
ADVOCATE: You wanted a personal meeting so that the parent, the kid, and yourself could in their home, away from the school…
Me: in their home away from the school…
ADVOCATE: So that there could be a frank discussion.
HO You said before the students created a plot or allegations against you?
Me: Yeah, because that’s what they threatened to do.
ADVOCATE: So they don’t have a chance to collude.
Me: Yeah, before they got to get together, and figure out what the false allegation was going to be, I wanted it totally defused, and by the way, I live in the same neighborhood.
HO: Did HOWARD lodge any kind of allegation against you?
Me: Yeah, he said I grabbed his arm.
HO OK. Did you visit HOWARD before or after he said you grabbed his arm?
Me: That was before the allegation was given to me.
HO OK. When did you visit HOWARD?
Me: This was just after election day.
HO: OK.
Me: The weekend after election day. And I hadn’t received any allegations.
84:05
HO: I don’t know. I’ve heard a lot of parent-teacher conferences. A lot of times you have parents who have a problem with a teacher or if there is a problem between a teacher and a parent you generally would have an assistant principal present or a principal just to make sure that everything goes smoothly—there’s some kind of order you know in case a parent gets upset or something like that. I mean I never heard of a situation in which the teacher refuses to speak and a teacher even having UFT present to just have a discussion about the child. I don’t understand.
ADVOCATE: You know what I don’t understand. What is being alleged that rises to being investigated? I’m not really sure I get this. What’s behind the whole thing, if you don’t mind?
HO: Well the thing is, this meeting with SILAS PAJECO happened on November 14, OK? Parent’s upset about the meeting or lack thereof. Parent is hearing that Ms. UNTAMED visits some of the students’ in the class homes and spoke badly about her son, SILAS.
ADVOCATE: So Ms. UNTAMED is alleged to have gone to students’ homes you mean of the four boys?
HO: Right, I guess, students, yes, to complain about SILAS.
ADVOCATE: This is the first time we’re hearing this…
HO: I know, I know.
ADVOCATE: Up until now it’s just a telephone conversation…
HO: Well it started off with a telephone conversation with MADELENE’s mom.
ADVOCATE: So all of that is just background to what we’re really getting at.
62:02:23
HO: No. What happens is… No, the allegation started with a conversation, just what I read.
ADVOCATE: Sorry, I’m a little thick today. I mean, I made many calls like this. I used the word sexual, and I never got in trouble for it. So I don’t understand.
HO: This allegation started with SOREA BENDERS, mother of student MADELENE BENDERS who reported that Ms. UNTAMED contacted her at home and stated that MADELENE was being sexually harassed. That another student was sexually harassing her daughter and she wanted to meet away from school to discuss the matter. And the daughter stated that she wasn’t being sexually harassed. I interviewed the daughter. I interviewed the mother. The mother is saying that Ms. UNTAMED said that SILAS PAJECO is sexually harassing the daughter. The daughter is saying that Ms. UNTAMED said that SILAS PAJECO was sexually harassing the daughter. Now, on November 14…
ADVOCATE: Wait a minute. Up to now is there anything that requires an investigation? Is it because Ms. UNTAMED may have mentioned another student by name, and specifically to a parent? Is that the problem?
HO: Well, I’ll get to it. I’ll get to it. They’re saying that this occurred on November 16. MADELENE’s mom got this phone call on November 16, but on November 14 this meeting occurred at the school. So the way it looks is that on November 14 you have this meeting that you are uncomfortable with regarding SILAS PAJECO. The mother mentions in the meeting that, hey, I’m hearing from other students that you’re saying bad things about my son. And you respond by removing yourself from the meeting. This is on November 14. But two days later MADELENE’s mom gets a call about some sexual harassment thing about SILAS.
Me: From the get go you see I said that November 16 just isn’t right.
HO: They seem to have it…
Me: How do they have it? Because when they started talking about this it was in January.
HO Because they wanted to see you. The letter is in January. This actually started in November.
Me: How do they know what the exact date was?
HO: The reason why was because they remember that they wanted to speak with you at the parent-teacher conference, and you were a no show that evening.
Me: OK Fine, but I could have talked to her two weeks prior.
HO That ‘s two days before the parent-teacher conference. This conversation was on a Sunday.
Me: No.
HO: No, the dates of the parent-teacher conference are correct. If their recollection is two days prior to the parent teacher conference.
Me: Well, their recollection is wrong. What is reasonable is to call them immediately after the October 24 Referral.
ADVOCATE: So the complaint…
Me: I didn’t call on November 16.
HO: I’m not saying when you called. I’m not saying when you didn’t call.
Me: That’s important now. I didn’t know that the date was important before, and I said from the get go that November 16 was too late.
ADVOCATE: So the basic complaint is that Ms. UNTAMED is harassing SILAS PAJECO.
Me: That I’m going after him? And that I’m ruining his reputation…
ADVOCATE: such as it is…
Me: as an upstanding young man?
ADVOCATE: Is that the nature of why we’re here?
HO: Um…Partly.
ADVOCATE: There’s more.
Me: There’s a lot more?
HO: Yes, there’s more.
Me: What I’m saying is that I don’t know if I wrote down exactly when I did it, but it was very close to October 24.
67:40
HO: Listen, it says here. On January 20 of 2009 (Reading) “ Ms. PRINCIPAL P., My name is SOREA BENDERS. I am MADELENE BENEDERS’ mother. This is to inform you that MS UNTAMED the science teacher had called me Sunday, November 16, 2008 to inform me that there is a child in my daughter’s class that is constantly sexually harassing her, and I should complain so that the school can remove the student from her class. Ms. UNTAMED had told me that the students name is SILAS PAJECO. I am writing you this letter so that you can please investigate if it is true or not. I spoke to my daughter and she said that the student was not sexually harassing her or bothering her. Ms. UNTAMED has called me a few times. She has invited me to meet with her at a diner about this. She told me that she cannot meet at the school, but that she could meet with me at a diner which I did not agree to attend. I had made many phone calls to the school to meet with me at the school and she never replied.” This is the letter. (He briefly shows the letter to the ADVOCATE and to me).
Me: And what was the date of the letter?
HO January 20.
Me: Well I don’t have it here, but I was given another letter that didn’t say anything like this.
ADVOCATE: This letter is to PRINCIPAL P.
Me: Well the thing is that I was given a letter by PRINCIPL P. that said something totally different. So that might be a further allegation, I don’t know. I'm not going to introduce it myself.
HO: So this is where.
Me: The thing is that I didn’t call her on Sunday, November 16 because the main idea of calling her was so that MADELENE could make up some work that she had not finished. Besides that I just wanted to make sure that they talked about what was happening in class. And so the Referral was before October 31 and the phone call would have come probably before October 31 or in the first week after because MADELENE hadn’t gotten her work in and I was giving her a last chance to get her work in . So it would have been just before October 31 or just after October 31 that I had this whole conversation with her mother and that the fact that she was cued on that date because that date makes me look bad.
HO: She was what?
Me: She was cued on that date.
HO: What do you mean cued?
Me: She was told by administrators that that would be a very convenient date for her to say that this conversation took place. That’s not when it took place.
HO: …by administrators
Me: Yes.
HO: Sunday, November 16?
Me: It just makes the case look worse for me.
HO: You’re saying that PRINCIPAL P…
Me: I’m saying that PRINCIPAL P…
HO I’m just asking because you said administrators…
Me: OK, PRINCIPAL P.. She’s the principal she can take full responsibility.
HO You’re saying that PRINCIPAL P. concocted this? This Sunday thing?
Me: Yes.
HO Why?
Me: Because I earn $100,000 and PRINCIPAL P. and I don’t get along.
HO Because what?
Me: She can get rid of a $100,000 teacher who is constantly telling her that “No, science should be taught this way and not that way.” OK? That’s basically it. She’s getting rid of someone who she would rather not deal with and save herself a lot of money in the process.
HO You feel like that’s the reason why.
Me: Yes. This is the only way that she can get rid of me.
71:30
HO: OK. Another case here. Regarding MADELENE.
Me: This is still MADELENE?
HO: Yes. This is another case. While I was conducting the investigation regarding this, I learned from MADELENE BENDERS that on January 28, 2009 when MADELENE was touched on her shoulder by a male student in the class, Ms. UNTAMED told her, “you should be used to being touched”. That you told MADELENE that she should be used to being touched. In addition, (reading) “Investigator Hayden Sands stated that he has also learned that Ms. UNTAMED has been asking students what they had told AP XAVIER about her.
Me: Asking…
HO: I’ll get to that.
ADVOCATE: …what they’re saying about her to who, you?
HO: No, to XAVIER.
HO: Did you make a statement like that?
Me: That she should be used to being touched? No. One of the boys who had been teasing her--and I sat them very far away from each other, but without my noticing he had located himself near enough to her so that he could go like that with his pen. HOWARD MAHAN. He was one of the four boys who had been teasing her.
He had been separated but he took the position of someone who was absent or who hadn’t come in, an empty chair. He moved quickly into an empty chair…
ADV: So that he could bother her and he poked her with his pen.
Me: Right, and so she said, Ms. UNTAMED, Ms. UNTAMED, HOWARD is poking me with his pen, and I looked at her because we had this thing where she had come to me for help, and I had gone out of my way and got into trouble trying to find out what happened and then she denied everything she had told me. So what I said to her was, “So this is happening again?”
HO Is that what you said?
Me: Yes, So this is happening AGAIN?
HO: You’re quoting yourself?
Me: Yes. “So this is happening again?” And this is as though to say, let this be a lesson to you. I said AGAIN, with emphasis. And then I told her that she needed to write it down or she could go and talk to a counselor.
HO You told her in front of the class?
Me: Yes, and I told her to sign it and date it this time. Right it down, sign it and date it, or I’ll give you a pass to your counselor. And then HOWARD got up and said, “So what she’s saying is that you’re used to getting touched, you’re used to getting touched”. This was HOWARD. This was HOWARD’s slant on what I said to MADELENE. “You should be used to it” because I said “again”.
77:53
HO So HOWARD stated that…go ahead
Me: That Ms. UNTAMED said, or what she’s saying is “ you should be used to it, or you’re used to boys touching you, or you like it.
ADVOCATE: That’s what he thought you meant by…
Me: No he was trying to get me in trouble. He often took statements that I said that were totally normal and turned them into derogatory statements. And that was a little joke of his.
HO Did you visit HOWARD’s home on Saturday or Sunday morning?
Me: Yes, on Sunday morning.
79:00
Me: And I also visited ALAN’S home and…I visited the four boys.
HO: Did you have any problem with HOWARD? Did HOWARD make any allegations against you?
Me: HOWARD was one of the four boys who threatened to make allegations against me and have their friends back them up. So very close to this date, before they got going with whatever allegations that they wanted to do, I decided that I needed to make home visits with the boys who had threatened me because this could fall right into PRINCIPAL P.’s lap and when you have these allegations… when you get the ball rolling…
HO What allegations existed though?
Me: … before they ever did, I wanted to talk to the boys’ parents and say that “ your son said this” and the group that I talked to I said “your boys are saying that they are going to get me in trouble by saying that I did something, by accusing me of something and then getting their friends to back them up. And I went immediately because now I don’t care about the back and forth inappropriate language. That was the least of my worries. What I talked to each one of these parents about including SILAS PAJECO’S was that they were threatening me and saying that they were going to get me in trouble, they were going to accuse me of doing something and then get their friends to lie for them and that nobody was going to believe me, and so I did home visits out of the school. I didn’t want the parents anywhere near the school until I made them very clear.
HO Why didn’t you just call the parents?
Me: Because I wanted to be with the child and the parents at the same time and that way they caved. They all caved. They said yes, that was what was said.
HO: But you made home visits for what reason?
Me: To make sure that the kids would tell the truth to their parents immediately before they got any little plot going. Once you start that, a teacher’s reputation can be totally ruined by just anything they say.
ADVOCATE: You wanted a personal meeting so that the parent, the kid, and yourself could in their home, away from the school…
Me: in their home away from the school…
ADVOCATE: So that there could be a frank discussion.
HO You said before the students created a plot or allegations against you?
Me: Yeah, because that’s what they threatened to do.
ADVOCATE: So they don’t have a chance to collude.
Me: Yeah, before they got to get together, and figure out what the false allegation was going to be, I wanted it totally defused, and by the way, I live in the same neighborhood.
HO: Did HOWARD lodge any kind of allegation against you?
Me: Yeah, he said I grabbed his arm.
HO OK. Did you visit HOWARD before or after he said you grabbed his arm?
Me: That was before the allegation was given to me.
HO OK. When did you visit HOWARD?
Me: This was just after election day.
HO: OK.
Me: The weekend after election day. And I hadn’t received any allegations.
84:05
Monday, June 1, 2009
OSI HEARING: Minute 41 to minute 60
41:08
Me: If MADELENE didn’t say it to me, I didn’t say it to the mother. If MADELENE told me that, then I said it. This was back on October 24.
HEARING OFFICER: This is what your recollection is.
Me: I wouldn’t have said these boys…
HO: The only thing that you said you said was the cow thing. The big breasts, none of that stuff came into play. You just said cow. You said that you didn’t tell the mother that MADELENE was being sexually harassed, but MADELENE says that you did and the mother said that you did.
Me: Well they put the sexual harassment thing on there, I didn’t.
HO OK so let’s move on.
Me: But whether I said that the boys…I know that MADELENE came and told me that the boys were doing this or the boys were doing that.
HO OK. But you didn’t put a sexual spin on this at all. But the mother is saying—I’m just letting you know--that the mother is saying you did and MADELENE is saying that you did. I’m just giving you full disclosure. This is what they’re saying.
Me: But that could have come up later.
HO : Parent did not want to speak to the teacher during parent teacher conferences because the teacher’s door was closed. Teacher was not present that night. So you were not there at night.
Me: I wasn’t there in the evening, no.
ADV: Was the afternoon and evening conference scheduled on the same day?
Me: yes
ADV: Just to get back to, to clarify something. The word sexual I think we’re all agreeing was not spoken by Ms. UNTAMED.
HO: That’s Ms. UNTAMED’s position.
Me: That’s my position.
ADV Ms. UNTAMED is saying that. It’s possible that the daughter and the mother might have come to that conclusion, and used that word themselves, based on what was said during the telephone conversation.
43:30
HO I can’t make that type of conclusion. I can say that MADELENE and her mother are saying that Ms. UNTAMED is saying SILAS PAJECO, sexual harassment. I can say that Ms. UNTAMED is saying that no, I’m not saying SILAS PAJECO, sexual harassment, I’m saying that boys were back and forth teasing each other, but no sexual harassment, just inappropriate language between MADELENE and the boys.
44:10
Me: Back and forth inappropriate language between MADELENE and the boys, and I substantiated that in my meeting with the boys. When I met with them I might have said, “Listen, you know, when you grow up if you are talking about girls’ breasts or you’re calling a girl a cow, that could be construed as harassment, or sexual harassment” when I talked to them because that can get you into a lot of trouble when you get older. And then they said, well she called me gay and she said I’d never get a girlfriend, so now, she is saying something just as bad to them as they were saying to her then I can’t try to bring them up on charges, make a referral of sexual harassment. This isn’t sexual harassment anymore unless it’s a dual sexual harassment, I don’t know, this is just back and forth bad language so I don’t think that I would have brought up sexual harassment because she was just as guilty as they were. I just told her mother to talk to her about what was being said. What she said to them, what they said to her and that they had mentioned, I seem to remember big breasts because it went with the cow thing.
HO: Well you didn’t remember, you just said…
Me: This is October 24
HO: you said all you heard was cow
Me: That’s all I heard. I’m just telling you what I heard.
HO cow is cow, that’s fine, I wrote that down but to say now because they said cow they also said big breasts. It doesn’t…
Me: OK , I don’t remember.
HO: OK, I’m comfortable.
Me: What I could I have said, what it would have been logical for me to say,
HO I only want to go by…
Me: Oh, what I remember saying? Oh I only remember saying cow, because that’s all I heard.
HO: That’s cool, I’m not trying to put words into your mouth. I’m not trying to surmise and wonder. I’m just trying I’m just writing that…
ADV you told the mom that you heard the word cow.
Me: All I heard was the word cow.
ADV: They came to the conclusion that it had something to do with sexual harassment, but you never mentioned PAJECO so I don’t know where they got that from.
Me: Well because it came from MADELENE. She knew who was teasing her.
ADV He must have been the main tormentor.
Me: No it was all four boys. They were all in this little group encouraging one another and MADELENE was doing it back to them. She wasn’t taking it lying down. Well, I shouldn’t have said it that way…
HO: Believe me if I could pass this case off onto someone else I would, but I don’t get to pick and choose my cases. I wish I could. According to MADELENE and her mom on or about Nov 16 this is when you made the comments about SILAS PAJECO.
Me: That doesn’t sound right.
HO: OK, I’m just saying. The time frame doesn’t sound right to you, OK. Did you have an issue with SILAS PAJECO and/or his mom.
Me: I spoke to and met with the parents of each of those four boys after they threatened me.
HO: Do you remember when you had a conversation with SILAS PAJECO’s mother?
Me: As close as possible to October 24.
HO: OK. Where was this that you met.
Me: I met with her in the school.
HO: OK who was present?
Me: Just her.
HO Just her. OK and what happened?
Me: She didn’t sound at all happy with what I was telling her, that her son was trading insults back and forth with a girl.
HO: So should I put in October?
Me: Yes close to October 24. Between October 24 and election day.
49:15
HO: So you say between October 24 and
Me: and election day.
HO: What day is election day?
Me: November 4
HO: OK so you say between October 24 and November 4 you had a conversation with Ms. PAJECO at the school and it was just you and her present? Ok. And where was that a classroom or...
50:28
Me: It was done in…they have a place where they sell little things.. the snack area. She’s on the PTA and she was selling stuff for the PTA. She was alone in there, and I think we closed the door.
HO: Was this the PTA office?
Me: No. It’s a place where they keep stuff to sell.
HO: Near the snack storage/sales area?
ADVOCATE: We had something like that at my school.
HO: OK. Did you have any other conversations with Ms. PAJECO at the school?
Me: There was something scheduled, but I didn’t attend because I wasn’t told that that was the time we were supposed to have the meeting.
HO: So in this meeting you told MS. PAJECO about the back and forth inappropriate language between him and..
52:00
Me: and MADELENE
HO: Did you say it was MADELENE?
Me: I probably said a girl.
52:42
HO: OK. You don’t recall, a female student.
Me: I asked her to talk to him about it. I also told her that he had threatened me. Because by the time that meeting had ended with the boys, I wasn’t so concerned with their inappropriate language with MADELENE. I was very concerned about what they said about accusing me of something and getting their friends to back them up. And that’s what I really talked to her about more than the inappropriate language. I was much more concerned about the threats. I told her that he had threatened to get his friends to accuse me of something and get his friends to back them up and no one would believe me.
HO: You said there was another time, there was a meeting, but you didn’t attend that meeting.
54:00
Me: I didn’t attend that meeting, but then there was another meeting…
HO: A meeting between, between SILAS PAJECO’S mom and you. This takes place at the school.
Me: Yes
HO: And then what happened.
Me: There was at least one AP there plus my union representative, and she wanted me to repeat in front of him and in front of everybody what I had said to her in private, and I chose not to.
HO: Why?
Me: Because I felt that whatever I said would be used against me.
HO: But if…
Me: If a child did something wrong, then it would be twisted around to say that I had done that same thing—that I had done something wrong.
55:00
HO: If a child did something wrong and you’re the teacher and you bring it to the attention of the parents, you would feel uncomfortable if the child was there to bring it to the attention of the parent?
Me: I was repeating again what I hadn’t heard. I had heard that he called her a cow—they called her a cow. I hadn’t heard her call them gay..
HO: Oh you hadn’t heard that
Me: No I hadn’t heard it.
HEARING OFFICER: How did you know about that?
Me: They told me. They said that she called them gay and they would never get a girlfriend. All I heard was a back and forth. I think this took place in December (the meeting). The girl had already said that they had not called her anything. By now she had totally said nothing happened, and so I really didn’t…I wasn’t comfortable speaking about it because I had already been threatened. I talked to my union rep, but I wasn’t comfortable talking in front of the assistant principals.
I had already written this referral—nobody had done anything about it.
ADVOCATE: You were afraid that whatever you said would be twisted against you in some way.
Me: Yes.
57:00
HO Alright, XAVIER wrote that on November 14 at about 9:10 AM she had a meeting with MS. PAJECO, you, and Mr. BAKER the UFT Rep in room 306 and Ms. XAVIER requested this meeting..I’m sorry, Ms. PAJECO requested this meeting because she was concerned about her son SILAS PAJECO from class 702. Ms. PAJECO stated that she did not request the meeting to accuse Ms. UNTAMED of something, only to clarify some of her concerns. Ms. UNTAMED stated that she will not respond. Ms. PAJECO stated that Ms. UNTAMED visited some of the students in the class homes and spoke badly about her son, SILAS. Ms. PAJECO stated that she would prefer if Ms. UNTAMED would speak to her directly to her about her son so she could correct him. Ms. PAJECO wanted to know the problem with her son, but Ms. UNTAMED refused to speak. Mr. BAKER and Ms. UNTAMED stepped out of the room to speak separately. At that time the parent expressed to me that she did not feel… that she was not comfortable with the meeting. When MS. UNTAMED returned to the meeting she stated to Ms. PAJECO that she had already spoken to her before extensively and would not like to respond to her at the moment. Ms. PAJECO stated that she didn’t know why not. All she wanted to do was correct her son. Ms. UNTAMED stated that if SILAS makes anymore mistakes she will respond in writing. Ms. PAJECO stated that she thinks she wasted her time in that meeting. I sent SILAS back to his class. Ms. PAJECO stated that next time she will send her husband to meet with you. Mr. BAKER stated that whatever the problem is, it’s still the same problem. She can’t repeat herself for private reasons. MS. UNTAMED stated she will let Ms. PAJECO know in writing. Did you ever let her know in writing?
1:00:03
Me: No, I would let her know in writing if he continued with the same behavior.
Me: If MADELENE didn’t say it to me, I didn’t say it to the mother. If MADELENE told me that, then I said it. This was back on October 24.
HEARING OFFICER: This is what your recollection is.
Me: I wouldn’t have said these boys…
HO: The only thing that you said you said was the cow thing. The big breasts, none of that stuff came into play. You just said cow. You said that you didn’t tell the mother that MADELENE was being sexually harassed, but MADELENE says that you did and the mother said that you did.
Me: Well they put the sexual harassment thing on there, I didn’t.
HO OK so let’s move on.
Me: But whether I said that the boys…I know that MADELENE came and told me that the boys were doing this or the boys were doing that.
HO OK. But you didn’t put a sexual spin on this at all. But the mother is saying—I’m just letting you know--that the mother is saying you did and MADELENE is saying that you did. I’m just giving you full disclosure. This is what they’re saying.
Me: But that could have come up later.
HO : Parent did not want to speak to the teacher during parent teacher conferences because the teacher’s door was closed. Teacher was not present that night. So you were not there at night.
Me: I wasn’t there in the evening, no.
ADV: Was the afternoon and evening conference scheduled on the same day?
Me: yes
ADV: Just to get back to, to clarify something. The word sexual I think we’re all agreeing was not spoken by Ms. UNTAMED.
HO: That’s Ms. UNTAMED’s position.
Me: That’s my position.
ADV Ms. UNTAMED is saying that. It’s possible that the daughter and the mother might have come to that conclusion, and used that word themselves, based on what was said during the telephone conversation.
43:30
HO I can’t make that type of conclusion. I can say that MADELENE and her mother are saying that Ms. UNTAMED is saying SILAS PAJECO, sexual harassment. I can say that Ms. UNTAMED is saying that no, I’m not saying SILAS PAJECO, sexual harassment, I’m saying that boys were back and forth teasing each other, but no sexual harassment, just inappropriate language between MADELENE and the boys.
44:10
Me: Back and forth inappropriate language between MADELENE and the boys, and I substantiated that in my meeting with the boys. When I met with them I might have said, “Listen, you know, when you grow up if you are talking about girls’ breasts or you’re calling a girl a cow, that could be construed as harassment, or sexual harassment” when I talked to them because that can get you into a lot of trouble when you get older. And then they said, well she called me gay and she said I’d never get a girlfriend, so now, she is saying something just as bad to them as they were saying to her then I can’t try to bring them up on charges, make a referral of sexual harassment. This isn’t sexual harassment anymore unless it’s a dual sexual harassment, I don’t know, this is just back and forth bad language so I don’t think that I would have brought up sexual harassment because she was just as guilty as they were. I just told her mother to talk to her about what was being said. What she said to them, what they said to her and that they had mentioned, I seem to remember big breasts because it went with the cow thing.
HO: Well you didn’t remember, you just said…
Me: This is October 24
HO: you said all you heard was cow
Me: That’s all I heard. I’m just telling you what I heard.
HO cow is cow, that’s fine, I wrote that down but to say now because they said cow they also said big breasts. It doesn’t…
Me: OK , I don’t remember.
HO: OK, I’m comfortable.
Me: What I could I have said, what it would have been logical for me to say,
HO I only want to go by…
Me: Oh, what I remember saying? Oh I only remember saying cow, because that’s all I heard.
HO: That’s cool, I’m not trying to put words into your mouth. I’m not trying to surmise and wonder. I’m just trying I’m just writing that…
ADV you told the mom that you heard the word cow.
Me: All I heard was the word cow.
ADV: They came to the conclusion that it had something to do with sexual harassment, but you never mentioned PAJECO so I don’t know where they got that from.
Me: Well because it came from MADELENE. She knew who was teasing her.
ADV He must have been the main tormentor.
Me: No it was all four boys. They were all in this little group encouraging one another and MADELENE was doing it back to them. She wasn’t taking it lying down. Well, I shouldn’t have said it that way…
HO: Believe me if I could pass this case off onto someone else I would, but I don’t get to pick and choose my cases. I wish I could. According to MADELENE and her mom on or about Nov 16 this is when you made the comments about SILAS PAJECO.
Me: That doesn’t sound right.
HO: OK, I’m just saying. The time frame doesn’t sound right to you, OK. Did you have an issue with SILAS PAJECO and/or his mom.
Me: I spoke to and met with the parents of each of those four boys after they threatened me.
HO: Do you remember when you had a conversation with SILAS PAJECO’s mother?
Me: As close as possible to October 24.
HO: OK. Where was this that you met.
Me: I met with her in the school.
HO: OK who was present?
Me: Just her.
HO Just her. OK and what happened?
Me: She didn’t sound at all happy with what I was telling her, that her son was trading insults back and forth with a girl.
HO: So should I put in October?
Me: Yes close to October 24. Between October 24 and election day.
49:15
HO: So you say between October 24 and
Me: and election day.
HO: What day is election day?
Me: November 4
HO: OK so you say between October 24 and November 4 you had a conversation with Ms. PAJECO at the school and it was just you and her present? Ok. And where was that a classroom or...
50:28
Me: It was done in…they have a place where they sell little things.. the snack area. She’s on the PTA and she was selling stuff for the PTA. She was alone in there, and I think we closed the door.
HO: Was this the PTA office?
Me: No. It’s a place where they keep stuff to sell.
HO: Near the snack storage/sales area?
ADVOCATE: We had something like that at my school.
HO: OK. Did you have any other conversations with Ms. PAJECO at the school?
Me: There was something scheduled, but I didn’t attend because I wasn’t told that that was the time we were supposed to have the meeting.
HO: So in this meeting you told MS. PAJECO about the back and forth inappropriate language between him and..
52:00
Me: and MADELENE
HO: Did you say it was MADELENE?
Me: I probably said a girl.
52:42
HO: OK. You don’t recall, a female student.
Me: I asked her to talk to him about it. I also told her that he had threatened me. Because by the time that meeting had ended with the boys, I wasn’t so concerned with their inappropriate language with MADELENE. I was very concerned about what they said about accusing me of something and getting their friends to back them up. And that’s what I really talked to her about more than the inappropriate language. I was much more concerned about the threats. I told her that he had threatened to get his friends to accuse me of something and get his friends to back them up and no one would believe me.
HO: You said there was another time, there was a meeting, but you didn’t attend that meeting.
54:00
Me: I didn’t attend that meeting, but then there was another meeting…
HO: A meeting between, between SILAS PAJECO’S mom and you. This takes place at the school.
Me: Yes
HO: And then what happened.
Me: There was at least one AP there plus my union representative, and she wanted me to repeat in front of him and in front of everybody what I had said to her in private, and I chose not to.
HO: Why?
Me: Because I felt that whatever I said would be used against me.
HO: But if…
Me: If a child did something wrong, then it would be twisted around to say that I had done that same thing—that I had done something wrong.
55:00
HO: If a child did something wrong and you’re the teacher and you bring it to the attention of the parents, you would feel uncomfortable if the child was there to bring it to the attention of the parent?
Me: I was repeating again what I hadn’t heard. I had heard that he called her a cow—they called her a cow. I hadn’t heard her call them gay..
HO: Oh you hadn’t heard that
Me: No I hadn’t heard it.
HEARING OFFICER: How did you know about that?
Me: They told me. They said that she called them gay and they would never get a girlfriend. All I heard was a back and forth. I think this took place in December (the meeting). The girl had already said that they had not called her anything. By now she had totally said nothing happened, and so I really didn’t…I wasn’t comfortable speaking about it because I had already been threatened. I talked to my union rep, but I wasn’t comfortable talking in front of the assistant principals.
I had already written this referral—nobody had done anything about it.
ADVOCATE: You were afraid that whatever you said would be twisted against you in some way.
Me: Yes.
57:00
HO Alright, XAVIER wrote that on November 14 at about 9:10 AM she had a meeting with MS. PAJECO, you, and Mr. BAKER the UFT Rep in room 306 and Ms. XAVIER requested this meeting..I’m sorry, Ms. PAJECO requested this meeting because she was concerned about her son SILAS PAJECO from class 702. Ms. PAJECO stated that she did not request the meeting to accuse Ms. UNTAMED of something, only to clarify some of her concerns. Ms. UNTAMED stated that she will not respond. Ms. PAJECO stated that Ms. UNTAMED visited some of the students in the class homes and spoke badly about her son, SILAS. Ms. PAJECO stated that she would prefer if Ms. UNTAMED would speak to her directly to her about her son so she could correct him. Ms. PAJECO wanted to know the problem with her son, but Ms. UNTAMED refused to speak. Mr. BAKER and Ms. UNTAMED stepped out of the room to speak separately. At that time the parent expressed to me that she did not feel… that she was not comfortable with the meeting. When MS. UNTAMED returned to the meeting she stated to Ms. PAJECO that she had already spoken to her before extensively and would not like to respond to her at the moment. Ms. PAJECO stated that she didn’t know why not. All she wanted to do was correct her son. Ms. UNTAMED stated that if SILAS makes anymore mistakes she will respond in writing. Ms. PAJECO stated that she thinks she wasted her time in that meeting. I sent SILAS back to his class. Ms. PAJECO stated that next time she will send her husband to meet with you. Mr. BAKER stated that whatever the problem is, it’s still the same problem. She can’t repeat herself for private reasons. MS. UNTAMED stated she will let Ms. PAJECO know in writing. Did you ever let her know in writing?
1:00:03
Me: No, I would let her know in writing if he continued with the same behavior.
40 minute recap continued
I wasn’t surprised to hear the names of MADELENE BENDERS and her mother, SOREA. On February 6, 2009 I was removed from the classroom and reassigned to the basement conference room after MADELENE accused me of calling her a slut. See UNpriviledged and I Swear to God.
On February 9, 2009, three days after I was removed from the classroom, I had a meeting with Principal P. Later I posted the transcript of this meeting under the title CONSTANTLY.
On February 12, I had another meeting in which Principal P. gave me a copy of the following letter written by SOREA BENDERS.
January 20, 2009
Principal P.,
I am SOREA BENDERS again. My daughter is constantly telling me that Ms. UNTAMED does not give her credit for the homework if the homework does not have a date.
Also Ms. UNTAMED is constantly screaming at my child to the point that one of the deans had step in to defend my daughter.
According to other students Ms. UNTAMED is constantly yelling at them. She always says that students are animals. Her remarks are uncalled for.
Again my number is 666-666-6666
(signed) SOREA BENDERS
None of this is true, of course. I give credit for homework whether it has a date or not. I only scream in case of extreme emergency. A Dean never came into my class to defend anyone. I don’t call my students animals unless we are discussing the classification of living things.
However, the HEARING OFFICER isn’t talking about that letter. He is referring to a completely different letter from SOREA BENDERS. I am hearing about it for the first time, three months after it was written. As I listen to the charges, I realize that the letter is about a phone call that I made six months ago, at the end of the first marking period. I barely remember it, and struggle to answer the questions.
Also the principal called into SCI to report the allegations in the letter on January 23, 2009 before the slut incident (February 6,2009). Did Madelene know about the letter?
I have heard that principals and DOE investigators like to surprise you with allegations, and also that they delay your hearing as long as possible so that you can remember as little as possible.
OK, enough recap—on with the hearing.
On February 9, 2009, three days after I was removed from the classroom, I had a meeting with Principal P. Later I posted the transcript of this meeting under the title CONSTANTLY.
On February 12, I had another meeting in which Principal P. gave me a copy of the following letter written by SOREA BENDERS.
January 20, 2009
Principal P.,
I am SOREA BENDERS again. My daughter is constantly telling me that Ms. UNTAMED does not give her credit for the homework if the homework does not have a date.
Also Ms. UNTAMED is constantly screaming at my child to the point that one of the deans had step in to defend my daughter.
According to other students Ms. UNTAMED is constantly yelling at them. She always says that students are animals. Her remarks are uncalled for.
Again my number is 666-666-6666
(signed) SOREA BENDERS
None of this is true, of course. I give credit for homework whether it has a date or not. I only scream in case of extreme emergency. A Dean never came into my class to defend anyone. I don’t call my students animals unless we are discussing the classification of living things.
However, the HEARING OFFICER isn’t talking about that letter. He is referring to a completely different letter from SOREA BENDERS. I am hearing about it for the first time, three months after it was written. As I listen to the charges, I realize that the letter is about a phone call that I made six months ago, at the end of the first marking period. I barely remember it, and struggle to answer the questions.
Also the principal called into SCI to report the allegations in the letter on January 23, 2009 before the slut incident (February 6,2009). Did Madelene know about the letter?
I have heard that principals and DOE investigators like to surprise you with allegations, and also that they delay your hearing as long as possible so that you can remember as little as possible.
OK, enough recap—on with the hearing.
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