UT 116 to 130
HEARING OFFICER: DAMARAS DEMAR, one of the female students said, “MADELENE made a comment to another student that another student touched her. Ms. UNTAMED made a verbal response to MADELENE, but DAMARAS did not hear the response. You asked DASIE and CARRIE to go into another classroom to write a statement saying that the three students did not hear what you said to MADELENE. That’s what DAMARAS said. Ms. UNTAMED did not visit the home of DAMARAS. These statements were written in Ms. KRAMER'S classroom. At the end of the written statement, she gave it to you in the original science classroom. She saying that you told them, “ Go in there and write that you didn’t hear what was said, what you said”
Me: I asked them to write it down in the classroom and basically the four boys descended on them, physically. They got out of their seats and ran up to them, saying “don’t write that”. They were like threatening them.
HO: DASIE MARESH wrote: While in the classroom, MADELENE stated that another student touched her. Ms. UNTAMED appeared to be angry at MADELENE’s statement. We’ve been through that a lot haven’t we. When questioned about what the comment meant to her, she stated that MADELENE is very popular and she’s not sure if you meant it in a bad way. OK? She felt that what you stated wasn’t inappropriate. That you wanted DASIE to write on paper that DASIE did not hear what you said to MADELENE. DASIE, DAMARAS, and CARRIE went into another classroom, Ms. KRAMER'S to write the statement. She wrote that even though I wasn’t involved in the situation, nor did not hear you say anything rude, she felt that if she didn’t write that she didn’t hear what you had stated to MADELENE that you would be angry and give her a lower grade and use this against her in the future. You understand what’s going on here?
Me: yeah, it’s all right there.
HO: Do you understand the power that you have?
Me: No. I understand the power THEY have, because that didn’t happen. That didn’t happen.
HO I’m not saying that it happened. What I’m saying is that’s why you can’t get personally involved in stuff like this because in her mind, because the allegation is about you, and you’re asking her to write it if she refuses to write what you want her to write she feels…
Me: … that she’s in trouble with me. And if she does write it she’s in trouble with her peers.
HO She’s not talking about whether or not she’s in trouble with her peers, she’s talking about what’s going to affect her grade.
Me: And she’s not talking to you about what’s going to happen with her peers if she tells the truth about what I said or what I didn’t say.
HO She told me. She told me initially what it was. She said…
Me: But that’s not what it was. What happened was that some kids told me that kids in 7B (this was on Monday) were saying that I had called MADELENE a slut and that they were very angry with me. And I said, have you ever heard me call anybody anything even approaching that? Have I ever said anything like that to you guys? No , but since you said it to MADELENE we’re really angry with you. I said, please understand that I never said anything like that.
HO Well let me move on.
Me: No, because what you said was wrong. What you read was wrong. Then on Friday…
HO: What I read?
Me: What you said.
HO: No I’m not making a statement. What I’m telling you is what the students said.
Me: No, that’s incorrect, so I have to tell you what the students said that was incorrect. Then on Friday…
HO Which Friday?
Me: The same week that on Monday, that I knew that kids were going around saying that I had called MADELENE a slut, and this was on Monday, so Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, on that Friday when MADELENE came in, I said, “Listen MADELENE, the kids are telling me that I said something about you. Are we ok?” And she said, “yes”. And then she walked away from me and then she turned around and she started screaming in front of the whole group , “you called me a slut, you called me a slut,” and I was just shocked.
HO: MADELENE said that to you?
Me: Yes, she said, “you called me a slut”.
HO: To you.
Me: Yes. In front of the whole class. And then the whole class started yelling. “You called her a slut. You called her a slut."
HO Let me say this, let me say this…
Me: What I said was to the girls, have you ever heard me call MADELENE "THAT"? And they said “no”.
HO: I think it’s safe to say that you did not call MADELENE a slut. No one is saying that you called her a slut.
Me: Not now. But that day they were accusing me of calling her a slut.
HO No, no, no,
Me: But that day they were accusing me of calling her a slut. The whole class. They were all screaming at me.
HO: I’m telling you, they did not say that you called MADELENE a slut, MADELENE is not even saying that you called her a slut. They’re saying that whatever you said could be perceived as if, they felt, it’s like another way of calling somebody a slut, OK? But not that you called her a slut. I’m in a agreement with you. You didn’t call her a slut, but you could have, perhaps, under the circumstances, dealing with seventh graders, perhaps, looking back in retrospect, I don’t want to be a Monday morning quarterback, but I think we could all agree here at this table that perhaps if you could do it again you might have used different vernacular you understand?
Me: No, because I was saying “again?” Is this happening again? I don’t know how…If you bring people up on charges for saying: “this is happening again?” “please write it down this time and sign it” or “go to a counselor”. “This is happening again?” That’s all I said. So there is no…I’m not trying to get the girls to say…oh you know…
HO When you’re saying this is happening again. Has she complained about being touched by any of those boys before?
HO: I thought it was only verbal.
Me: Well, by being BOTHERING by them.
HO: No,no, no. Touched
Me: I’m not a lawyer. I’m not a lawyer. To me it’s AGAIN. BOTHERING IS BOTHERING whether it is pen poking or calling her a cow. BOTHERING IS BOTHERING. PLEASE!!!!
HO: Initially we were only talking about verbal inappropriate statements. Now she says that HOWARD is touching me, and you're saying…
Me: poking her with a pen.
HO: Right, poking her with a pen, whatever, and you’re saying “again”. No. There’s no previous allegation.
Me: Yes there is. They’re calling her…
ADVOCATE: So we’re all agreed that no one called her a slut. So we’re all agreed that the slut business is out. We’re past that.
HO: Agreed, I’m not putting that in.
Me: But putting it that I somehow made them think with my tone of voice that she was a slut or that I was calling her a slut...
ADV: That’s the way a kid thinks when he’s predisposed to.
Me: That's their problem, that's not something that I can control.
HO: I’ll move on.
Me: No. But, the girls… I did not tell them to, “Go write down that I didn’t call her a slut”. I said, have you ever heard me call her something like that and they said, “No”, and I said to please write that down. And I do that a lot with kids. I say. Please write this down. Please write this down. I mean, it’s not an investigation. It’s simply, I want facts, I want this in writing so that later on nobody can say anything and so it’s not interfering with an investigation when the investigation isn’t going on yet. I just wanted to make sure and then when the kids were saying, “Oh don’t do that”, I said, “would you be more comfortable writing outside the classroom”. They had to go outside the classroom so that the class wouldn’t tell them what to write. I wasn’t telling them what to write, I was just saying please write down that I never called her that.
HO OK. CARRIE: While in the classroom, CARRIE sat next to MADELENE. She said HOWARD poked MADELENE. MADELENE told Ms. UNTAMED that HOWARD poked her, and you told MADELENE, “you’re probably used to it”. CARRIE felt. I asked how did you feel about what she said? How did you interpret it? CARRIE felt that it was an inappropriate statement for you to make, to say to MADELENE, in class, and that you denied saying that MADELENE was probably used to it, and stated that HOWARD made that statement, not her. Now here we are, we’re just saying that here we have a student that sat right next to MADELENE who hears you say it and she can’t determine whether HOWARD said it or you said it? I’m just saying…
Me: No she can’t, and if she could, she’s under a lot of pressure from her peers to give that statement.
HO: Well you told them to go out and write the statements.
Me: the statements they wrote for me didn’t say that. They just said that Ms. UNTAMED never said anything rude, she didn’t call MADELENE a slut.
HO: Ok For the record, can you make a notation I mean I see you writing that Ms. UNTAMED’s not providing any of the statements that she has of the students.
Me: How can I provide something when I don’t know exactly what I’m being charged with? I could bring something like this (patomiming an armload of stuff) here. I didn’t know the allegations before I entered this room. I could imagine them, but I’m not going to bring a whole briefcase full of stuff until I know the specific allegations that I’m being asked about.
HO: I asked you am I going to see those and you said…
Me: You want me to send them to you?
HO no no no I just wanted to see what these kids wrote.
Me: I can send you copies, but not the originals.
HO: I don’t need the originals. I was curious as to what they wrote. I’m not unreasonable, I just want to see what they wrote. This case is a pain in the neck.
ADVOCATE: How many more pages to you have there?
HO: A couple of more pages.
Me: Since they’re already saying that I forced them to say these statements, I don’t know what good they are, but I can send them to you. I can send you copies if you want. I don’t know what good that would do me. Do you want them?
ADVOCATE: Do you want her to send you the copies?
HO: I’ll add them to the case, it’s no problem.
Me: And I’ll send you copies of the things the boys said that MADELENE said and what MADELENE said and that the boys said.
HO: … told the class that she was accused you of saying something that she did not say. Oh that you told the class that you were accused you of doing something that you did not do.
Ok CARRIE CAFRIN did not hear what you said to MADELENE. The class was noisy. They asked two students to write if you said anything to MADELENE. CARRIE stated that she wrote that she didn’t hear what was said, and if you stated anything, it probably wouldn’t have been bad.
Me: This is DAMARAS or CARRIE?
HO: CARRIE CAFRIN.