Monday, June 1, 2009

OSI HEARING: Minute 41 to minute 60

Me: If MADELENE didn’t say it to me, I didn’t say it to the mother. If MADELENE told me that, then I said it. This was back on October 24.

HEARING OFFICER: This is what your recollection is.

Me: I wouldn’t have said these boys…

HO: The only thing that you said you said was the cow thing. The big breasts, none of that stuff came into play. You just said cow. You said that you didn’t tell the mother that MADELENE was being sexually harassed, but MADELENE says that you did and the mother said that you did.

Me: Well they put the sexual harassment thing on there, I didn’t.

HO OK so let’s move on.

Me: But whether I said that the boys…I know that MADELENE came and told me that the boys were doing this or the boys were doing that.

HO OK. But you didn’t put a sexual spin on this at all. But the mother is saying—I’m just letting you know--that the mother is saying you did and MADELENE is saying that you did. I’m just giving you full disclosure. This is what they’re saying.

Me: But that could have come up later.

HO : Parent did not want to speak to the teacher during parent teacher conferences because the teacher’s door was closed. Teacher was not present that night. So you were not there at night.

Me: I wasn’t there in the evening, no.

ADV: Was the afternoon and evening conference scheduled on the same day?

Me: yes

ADV: Just to get back to, to clarify something. The word sexual I think we’re all agreeing was not spoken by Ms. UNTAMED.

HO: That’s Ms. UNTAMED’s position.

Me: That’s my position.

ADV Ms. UNTAMED is saying that. It’s possible that the daughter and the mother might have come to that conclusion, and used that word themselves, based on what was said during the telephone conversation.


HO I can’t make that type of conclusion. I can say that MADELENE and her mother are saying that Ms. UNTAMED is saying SILAS PAJECO, sexual harassment. I can say that Ms. UNTAMED is saying that no, I’m not saying SILAS PAJECO, sexual harassment, I’m saying that boys were back and forth teasing each other, but no sexual harassment, just inappropriate language between MADELENE and the boys.


Me: Back and forth inappropriate language between MADELENE and the boys, and I substantiated that in my meeting with the boys. When I met with them I might have said, “Listen, you know, when you grow up if you are talking about girls’ breasts or you’re calling a girl a cow, that could be construed as harassment, or sexual harassment” when I talked to them because that can get you into a lot of trouble when you get older. And then they said, well she called me gay and she said I’d never get a girlfriend, so now, she is saying something just as bad to them as they were saying to her then I can’t try to bring them up on charges, make a referral of sexual harassment. This isn’t sexual harassment anymore unless it’s a dual sexual harassment, I don’t know, this is just back and forth bad language so I don’t think that I would have brought up sexual harassment because she was just as guilty as they were. I just told her mother to talk to her about what was being said. What she said to them, what they said to her and that they had mentioned, I seem to remember big breasts because it went with the cow thing.

HO: Well you didn’t remember, you just said…

Me: This is October 24

HO: you said all you heard was cow

Me: That’s all I heard. I’m just telling you what I heard.

HO cow is cow, that’s fine, I wrote that down but to say now because they said cow they also said big breasts. It doesn’t…

Me: OK , I don’t remember.

HO: OK, I’m comfortable.

Me: What I could I have said, what it would have been logical for me to say,

HO I only want to go by…

Me: Oh, what I remember saying? Oh I only remember saying cow, because that’s all I heard.

HO: That’s cool, I’m not trying to put words into your mouth. I’m not trying to surmise and wonder. I’m just trying I’m just writing that…

ADV you told the mom that you heard the word cow.

Me: All I heard was the word cow.

ADV: They came to the conclusion that it had something to do with sexual harassment, but you never mentioned PAJECO so I don’t know where they got that from.

Me: Well because it came from MADELENE. She knew who was teasing her.

ADV He must have been the main tormentor.

Me: No it was all four boys. They were all in this little group encouraging one another and MADELENE was doing it back to them. She wasn’t taking it lying down. Well, I shouldn’t have said it that way…

HO: Believe me if I could pass this case off onto someone else I would, but I don’t get to pick and choose my cases. I wish I could. According to MADELENE and her mom on or about Nov 16 this is when you made the comments about SILAS PAJECO.

Me: That doesn’t sound right.

HO: OK, I’m just saying. The time frame doesn’t sound right to you, OK. Did you have an issue with SILAS PAJECO and/or his mom.

Me: I spoke to and met with the parents of each of those four boys after they threatened me.

HO: Do you remember when you had a conversation with SILAS PAJECO’s mother?

Me: As close as possible to October 24.

HO: OK. Where was this that you met.

Me: I met with her in the school.

HO: OK who was present?

Me: Just her.

HO Just her. OK and what happened?

Me: She didn’t sound at all happy with what I was telling her, that her son was trading insults back and forth with a girl.

HO: So should I put in October?

Me: Yes close to October 24. Between October 24 and election day.


HO: So you say between October 24 and

Me: and election day.

HO: What day is election day?

Me: November 4

HO: OK so you say between October 24 and November 4 you had a conversation with Ms. PAJECO at the school and it was just you and her present? Ok. And where was that a classroom or...


Me: It was done in…they have a place where they sell little things.. the snack area. She’s on the PTA and she was selling stuff for the PTA. She was alone in there, and I think we closed the door.

HO: Was this the PTA office?

Me: No. It’s a place where they keep stuff to sell.

HO: Near the snack storage/sales area?

ADVOCATE: We had something like that at my school.

HO: OK. Did you have any other conversations with Ms. PAJECO at the school?

Me: There was something scheduled, but I didn’t attend because I wasn’t told that that was the time we were supposed to have the meeting.

HO: So in this meeting you told MS. PAJECO about the back and forth inappropriate language between him and..



HO: Did you say it was MADELENE?

Me: I probably said a girl.


HO: OK. You don’t recall, a female student.

Me: I asked her to talk to him about it. I also told her that he had threatened me. Because by the time that meeting had ended with the boys, I wasn’t so concerned with their inappropriate language with MADELENE. I was very concerned about what they said about accusing me of something and getting their friends to back them up. And that’s what I really talked to her about more than the inappropriate language. I was much more concerned about the threats. I told her that he had threatened to get his friends to accuse me of something and get his friends to back them up and no one would believe me.

HO: You said there was another time, there was a meeting, but you didn’t attend that meeting.


Me: I didn’t attend that meeting, but then there was another meeting…

HO: A meeting between, between SILAS PAJECO’S mom and you. This takes place at the school.

Me: Yes

HO: And then what happened.

Me: There was at least one AP there plus my union representative, and she wanted me to repeat in front of him and in front of everybody what I had said to her in private, and I chose not to.

HO: Why?

Me: Because I felt that whatever I said would be used against me.

HO: But if…

Me: If a child did something wrong, then it would be twisted around to say that I had done that same thing—that I had done something wrong.


HO: If a child did something wrong and you’re the teacher and you bring it to the attention of the parents, you would feel uncomfortable if the child was there to bring it to the attention of the parent?

Me: I was repeating again what I hadn’t heard. I had heard that he called her a cow—they called her a cow. I hadn’t heard her call them gay..

HO: Oh you hadn’t heard that

Me: No I hadn’t heard it.

HEARING OFFICER: How did you know about that?

Me: They told me. They said that she called them gay and they would never get a girlfriend. All I heard was a back and forth. I think this took place in December (the meeting). The girl had already said that they had not called her anything. By now she had totally said nothing happened, and so I really didn’t…I wasn’t comfortable speaking about it because I had already been threatened. I talked to my union rep, but I wasn’t comfortable talking in front of the assistant principals.

I had already written this referral—nobody had done anything about it.

ADVOCATE: You were afraid that whatever you said would be twisted against you in some way.

Me: Yes.


HO Alright, XAVIER wrote that on November 14 at about 9:10 AM she had a meeting with MS. PAJECO, you, and Mr. BAKER the UFT Rep in room 306 and Ms. XAVIER requested this meeting..I’m sorry, Ms. PAJECO requested this meeting because she was concerned about her son SILAS PAJECO from class 702. Ms. PAJECO stated that she did not request the meeting to accuse Ms. UNTAMED of something, only to clarify some of her concerns. Ms. UNTAMED stated that she will not respond. Ms. PAJECO stated that Ms. UNTAMED visited some of the students in the class homes and spoke badly about her son, SILAS. Ms. PAJECO stated that she would prefer if Ms. UNTAMED would speak to her directly to her about her son so she could correct him. Ms. PAJECO wanted to know the problem with her son, but Ms. UNTAMED refused to speak. Mr. BAKER and Ms. UNTAMED stepped out of the room to speak separately. At that time the parent expressed to me that she did not feel… that she was not comfortable with the meeting. When MS. UNTAMED returned to the meeting she stated to Ms. PAJECO that she had already spoken to her before extensively and would not like to respond to her at the moment. Ms. PAJECO stated that she didn’t know why not. All she wanted to do was correct her son. Ms. UNTAMED stated that if SILAS makes anymore mistakes she will respond in writing. Ms. PAJECO stated that she thinks she wasted her time in that meeting. I sent SILAS back to his class. Ms. PAJECO stated that next time she will send her husband to meet with you. Mr. BAKER stated that whatever the problem is, it’s still the same problem. She can’t repeat herself for private reasons. MS. UNTAMED stated she will let Ms. PAJECO know in writing. Did you ever let her know in writing?


Me: No, I would let her know in writing if he continued with the same behavior.

No comments: